Upgraded T04 turbos for less $ than stock! Wtf? Link inside

ajpagosa

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Feb 10, 2017
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Meth signal is pegged at 100% though. Avg_ign ~6 whole run so all the timing advance is getting pulled. Something wrong with meth system after the flow sensor..
 
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typedRew

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Feb 25, 2019
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Meth signal is pegged at 100% though. Avg_ign ~6 whole run so all the timing advance is getting pulled. Something wrong with meth system after the flow sensor..
idk jb4 that well, but ive seen a few logs like that, i was under the impression it just read 100 when not in use

again, i dont know jb4 logs that well
 

ajpagosa

Specialist
Feb 10, 2017
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I'm running an older non-progressive JB4/FSB/meth system and when I didn't run meth or there was a problem with flow it didn't read 100, at least on Map 3 IIRC. Maybe newer ones are different. But that should be signal to the pump/FSB:

" Meth: Methanol flow (0-100%). The meth display shows a voltage conversion of the JB4 0-5v #15 input. Typically this input is connected to a BMS supplied FSB system which is used by the JB4 to control the methanol pump and measure pump pressure and flow. This signal can also be read from a stand alone 0-5V flow sensor such as the one provided by Aquamist. "


As you pointed the IAT's are not budging at all (should drop a lot) and timing is way retarded. I'd check all the fittings/nozzles and bleed system if it were my car.
 
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Gates_N54

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Jul 8, 2020
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I'm running an older non-progressive JB4/FSB/meth system and when I didn't run meth or there was a problem with flow it didn't read 100, at least on Map 3 IIRC. Maybe newer ones are different. But that should be signal to the pump/FSB:

" Meth: Methanol flow (0-100%). The meth display shows a voltage conversion of the JB4 0-5v #15 input. Typically this input is connected to a BMS supplied FSB system which is used by the JB4 to control the methanol pump and measure pump pressure and flow. This signal can also be read from a stand alone 0-5V flow sensor such as the one provided by Aquamist. "


As you pointed the IAT's are not budging at all (should drop a lot) and timing is way retarded. I'd check all the fittings/nozzles and bleed system if it were my car.

It's not being used... It's on a snow controller at the moment so the JB4 doesn't know its there and I haven't changed the nozzle for the increase in boost . This will be fixed at some point and i assumed it was an issue im running into. As far as the IAT's its been around 87 - 90 outside the past week. Trims are pretty maxed. Im only running a 450 in the tank at the moment on 93. Coils/New Plugs/ another 450 / and port injection is next.
 

rev210

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Feb 24, 2019
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I have a question about the 17T and forgive me if it is stupid
is there an interest, an advantage to buy 17t 11 blades?

Its not as simple as picking a wheel for the compressor or turbine. Everything has to work as a system. There is lots of engineering differences at the design level of a wheel that might have 11 blades , you could have vastly different designs and efficiencies. 11 blades by itself means very little.
 
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Torgus

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so in practical terms it all depends on what I'm looking for, it's probably a decision to make with my tuner according to my objectives

As with most vehicle upgrades it all depends on your final goal(s) and how you will be using the vehicle: highway pulls, autoX, track days, etc. At the barest minimum: how much HP do you want and what fuel do you have access to? That should roughly determine what size turbo(s) you need.

The larger the wheel, the more mass, the more lag, but in theory the potential to make more HP because it will flow more LBs/min. So a 19T will make more peak power than a 17T in most cases. At some point you are just stuffing in the largest wheels you can fit in the housing. The MUCH heavier wheels still have the small TD03 journal bearing assemblies is most cases. So you are asking the stock N54 TD03 bearing which is a 10T from the factory to now hold a larger heavier and potentially horribly balanced 19T wheel.

IMO a TD04 centersection/bearing assembly is a must for upgraded twins. At the end of the day they are shoving big ass 19T wheels in tiny ass compressor housing made for 10T wheels.

A 10T vs. 20T for comparison.
attachment.jpg



Edit: A Single turbo like my 6466 has roughly 4x the sized bearing as the twins. When you see people make 700whp on a single and 700whp on twins one is generally pushed to it's limit out of it's efficiency islands making them hot air blowers where as the other is comfortably living in it's correct efficiency island still producing cooler air and will have a longer happier life.

You will notice the larger twins start to have dynos that look more like single turbos, most likely that is because people are finally tuning them to get rid of the massive low end tq bump which bends rods and kills clutches or the wheels just have so much more mass and hence more lag and worse transient response especially as they are journal bearing vs. ball bearing.

Just my thoughts.
 
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Threetirtyfive

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Jan 9, 2019
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"At the end of the day they are shoving big ass 19T wheels in tiny ass compressor housing made for 10T wheels."
Incorrect assumption. They're not hybrid they are bigger turbos. They don't use stock frames.
 

Torgus

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"At the end of the day they are shoving big ass 19T wheels in tiny ass compressor housing made for 10T wheels."
Incorrect assumption. They're not hybrid they are bigger turbos. They don't use stock frames.

Sorry, I disagree with the information in your post, I believe it is false and misleading. I try to not use the big red X.

Also, if you don't quote people it's a bit hard for people to follow the conversation and understand who you are replying to.

The china cast have been proven to not even be up to the stock MHI standards depending on what vintage you purchase/end up with be it Zage V1 etc. You can go find the posts by Rob Beck, if you care, where he goes into them with a borescope and shows you the casting flaws, design issues, wheel issues, compares the A/R, etc. if you compare the chinafolds to stock MHI turbofolds they are basically the exact same size for all intents and purposes unless something has changed?

If they are larger, what are the measurements exactly? What was made larger on them specifically? Why would you go through the trouble of making a new casting and then keep the small TD03 center section and JB? Because they want to produce the cheapest/least expensive turbos. They are a direct copy of the stock MHI turbofolds just cast unless things have changed.

They still use TD03 center sections, again, unless something has changed. It's a journal bearing made to support the weight of a 10T wheel, not a 19T which should only be paired with a TD04 center section/JB per MHI engineers. The larger wheels that were not designed to be used on the TD03 put a greater stress on the bearings. On top of that, when you use a TD04 wheel/bearing your max turbine shaft speed goes down ~30k for safety/reliability. You shouldn't be spinning the larger 17/19Ts the same as you would stock 10T. No one knows what is a safe shaft speed is with TD03 centersection JB with large 17/19T wheels. Very likely significantly less than the 30k reduction you need to account for on native TD04 centersections with 17/19T wheels vs TD03 per MHI.

When they don't last as long as twins with upgraded TD04 center sections and JBs don't be surprised. There is a reason TD04 JB style twin turbos cost more.

Like most things in life you get what you pay for.


Edit: Just to be clear I don't have a dog in this fight. In my opinion a single turbo is the best way to go on the n54. If not a single than the RB GameFinishers which are probably the only 'real' twins with a true better manifold design using TD04 components. Unfortunately once you add downpipes, inlets, outlets, etc. You are at the cost of a single turbo conversion which is inherently 2x as reliable, has a better bearing assembly, and will make more power on pump or e85 all things considered while still being in an efficient compressor map island and not blowing hot ass air.

Everything I have stated in my posts was known 5+ years ago and is not new.
 
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langsbr

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I don't think any of the hybrids are using stock compressor housings, since they all have 2" inlet and outlets. Even my mmps have a full 19t compressor housing.The turbine housing, yes, they are typically stock (og mmp and pure), or slightly smaller (Franks and most other China), or too much bigger (mmp 1k). The rb gfs are probably the best sized turbine housings.

The only twins is recommend now are frankenturbo (basically Chinas but td04 chra and includes outlets for very close to China eBay price) or RB GFs. The smaller gfs have made 700 (I think close or at limit) and the larger ones have done 680 not maxed out.
 
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Blaster3500

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I don't think any of the hybrids are using stock compressor housings, since they all have 2" inlet and outlets. Even my mmps have a full 19t compressor housing.The turbine housing, yes, they are typically stock (og mmp and pure), or slightly smaller (Franks and most other China), or too much bigger (mmp 1k). The rb gfs are probably the best sized turbine housings.

The only twins is recommend now are frankenturbo (basically Chinas but td04 chra and includes outlets for very close to China eBay price) or RB GFs. The smaller gfs have made 700 (I think close or at limit) and the larger ones have done 680 not maxed out.

There are a few that still use a machined stock compressor housing. The other china hybrids are using a stock size compressor housing with a larger inlet. The A/R and outlet are the same as stock. It is similar to the older stock compressor housings with a new inlet pressed or welded in (PS2 HiFlow/RB Next Gen Plus). Even the outlet ID on the GC's is identical to stock. The believe the only turbos that have a true TD04 compressor housing are MMP, RB GF's, Super Evo's-(now discontinued) and Hydras.

Most of the china turbos are nothing more than a true hybrid. Stock housings machined to accept larger wheels.
 

b4llistic

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Nov 22, 2018
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EDIT: Thanks your finding and reading my post. Unfortunately, Spoolstreet is no longer a neutral platform where we can have honest discussions on subjects and products freely.
For this reason I have deleted all information I posted on the forums.
 
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fmorelli

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Aug 11, 2017
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Final update on my early buyer 19T turbo adventure;
Thanks for sharing your experience, throughout, and providing real information along the way. Unfortunately you are not the first person from whom I've heard such a story with ispeedytech.
All in all I think I was just a bit unlucky and shouldn't have been a first buyer.
Obviously subjective, but my read I would not characterise this as "a bit unlucky".

You bought a product that clearly presented shoddy quality control - that is, below the bar of what anyone would consider reasonable. You then spent weeks trying to get the vendor to speak to you. They summarily ignored you. When you finally put public pressure on them, they told you to send the product back. Then they never picked up the product they asked you to pay for shipping and return - for a month. These people are jerking you all over the place, on a four digit purchase of garbage, and then they had you double down by paying shipping for something that was never going to be reimbursed. That's not a bit unlucky in my book - you are too kind. Imagine someone treating you like that face-to-face ... think it would have gone that far?

Glad you got your money back through Paypal.

Filippo
 
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Noxide

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Jan 8, 2020
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There are now two people in the UK who fitted the first batch of these 19t turbos, so far both very happy and no issues. Full spool is around 3400rpm looking at the logs, I was at the Dyno two weeks ago and they made 554/600lbft at 22 psi and 7 degrees timing with 99 RON fuel only.

Great!