N54 Dual HPFP

NoQuarter

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I get it if you guys wanna keep some things secret still, but I'm very curious how these are being driven and how DME control is being maintained. Any word on that you can say?

Also, what's the increase in flow like? I saw some people mentioning its only capable of around ~30% more than our stock HPFP on FB but didnt see any solid evidence of that.

Not much to share yet on how it is being controlled.

As far as flow goes, we didn't attempt to do any flow testing. The main purpose at this point is to get piston style pumps working with the N54 DME.
 

Panzerfaust

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Not much to share yet on how it is being controlled.

As far as flow goes, we didn't attempt to do any flow testing. The main purpose at this point is to get piston style pumps working with the N54 DME.
Fair enough! Even if it's still just "proof of concept" right now, I'm still impressed and look forward to what you do achieve. Good job guys!
 
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EthanolTurbo

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One of the most exciting threads I've seen in a while. This platform needs easier full E85 fueling capabilities.
 
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MoreBoost

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So what's the comparison on cost and flow ability of the dual M4 pump vs the Double shotgun? Must be close.
 

Panzerfaust

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So what's the comparison on cost and flow ability of the dual M4 pump vs the Double shotgun? Must be close.
Should be double late N55 HPFP capability in theory, no?
I'd have to imagine it depends on if theres bottleknecks in place still or anything of that nature after the two HPFP pumps.

Obviously the LPFP side is very different but just like dropping in two 450s doesnt give us 400% extra flow capacity as-is, we still need to replace other components. I'd imagine drilling the rail like in the shotgun setups would be required to help achieve that 2x flow rate, plus removing any other limitations like those hard pipe bends (if they're still being used here?). Unless you're talking just strictly the HPFP flow itself, like I believe @fmorelli is asking for.

Admittedly I dont know very much about the S55 pump and could be very wrong, but I imagine this is still going to be just as costly or likely more as the DB shotgun all said and done. The trade off is hopefully having full DME control vs marrying a standalone controller and having an extra thing to tweak when tuning vs being "one and done" if the kit works the way they (and everyone else!) hopes.
 
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Rob@RBTurbo

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Looked into the S55 HPFP setup a couple years back, man it was pricey even at our cost. Would be really nice though if it could be controlled.... will keep fingers crossed something comes about here.
 

BQTuning

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@BQTuning ... by chance you know the flow numbers for the S55 HPFP?

Filippo

Should be double late N55 HPFP capability in theory, no?

I dont remember off hand but from what I recall the N55 pump and S55 pump is not the same, they have different flow specs, different part numbers, and different CAM profiles that supplement them. There are various pumps by Bosch that "look" the same but they have different specs http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/med...p_HDP_5-LW_Datasheet_51_en_10543336971pdf.pdf for example. This version runs for about $8-$10 from an Aus source for one pump and another source, from the US, quote about $4k+ for one pump.

FYI @fmorelli we had covered this on the first 3 pages on the closed thread.

I dont think the idea of this project is meant or intended to cast the idea that the Bosch pumps would be proprietary to this setup, I hope not. I would assume if all goes well people would be able to source perhaps pumps from XDI etc and not necessarily have to break the bank on Bosch pumps.
 

Panzerfaust

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I dont remember off hand but from what I recall the N55 pump and S55 pump is not the same, they have different flow specs, different part numbers, and different CAM profiles that supplement them. There are various pumps by Bosch that "look" the same but they have different specs http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/med...p_HDP_5-LW_Datasheet_51_en_10543336971pdf.pdf for example. This version runs for about $8-$10 from an Aus source for one pump and another source, from the US, quote about $4k+ for one pump.

FYI @fmorelli we had covered this on the first 3 pages on the closed thread.

I dont think the idea of this project is meant or intended to cast the idea that the Bosch pumps would be proprietary to this setup, I hope not. I would assume if all goes well people would be able to source perhaps pumps from XDI etc and not necessarily have to break the bank on Bosch pumps.
Wow, this is awesome information in several regards. Not only did I not know there were identical looking Bosch pumps with different specs, but like many others I thought the S55 just used two N55 pumps. I knew there were setups out there to adapt the N55 to a dual pump setup, but didnt realize why they were so much cheaper than the S55 solution and chalked it up to the M tax on top of the BMW tax. Good to know theres different pumps at hugely different price points too. After looking at the cost of a single S55 pump I almost entirely wrote off this idea, but I'm potentially back in again after this post.

I'll have to do some of my own researching on some of this that I can assume is out there on some forums somewhere (like differences between the N55 and S55 pumps specifically), but do you have any recommended more technical reading or articles describing how the different setup pumps effect flow etc? Does the Bosch website contain more, similar PDFs to what you linked that could be sufficient for us layman?
 

martymil

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I talked about this and have posted about it over 2 years ago but the setup is cost prohibitive, yes if you come across a second hand it will be better but for 99% of
us it's just ludicrous as the whole setup runs well over 3k plus new and major labour cost and that's without upgrading the cams and pumps when I priced everything back then.

My little orbital pump has been going for close to two years without any issues what so ever whilst being overdriven by the shotgun kit.

Even if I replace the pump every so often it will still be cheaper and not so labour intensive, most of us will not even keep our cars that long to see them fail.
Don't get me wrong its a great idea and if you can get it to market cheap but very doubtful.

Looking forward to the results.
 
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Jake@MHD

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I have yet to see any definitive proof that a single N55 pump is any different than a single S55 pump other than the fuel inlet / outlet location. I doubt the cam profile is different either, other than adding an extra lobe for the second pump. If cam profile were different, that is the easiest change to make anyway.
 

martymil

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I'm sure it's very close but cost is prohibitive to 99% of n54 owners, i can almost guarantee not much of a market for it and that's why I didn't bother chasing this year's ago.

Dual di control via dme is where the money is, just like the dual lpfp BPM4 controller, that thing is working sweet as and worth every penny.
 
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BQTuning

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Not sure if this helps perhaps this is where I got it from as Bosch has two variant base models of the HDP5 pumps http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/downloads/Products/18014401286074379.html#teaser in which each is customized to the vendors specs.

I think, not sure, @Chris@VargasTurboTech from VTT may have posted something last year that the N54 rotary HPFP outperforms a single N55 pump and that it would take two N55 pumps to perform the same as a single N54 rotary pump. (Im not sure if this was VTT I read that tested this or somewhere else from another vendor that did the test).

Now we all know from experience you cannot get no where near 500 whp on straight E85 on just the N54 HPFP regardless of what LPFP you upgrade to or Im just unaware of it ? However the S55 can make over 550 whp on straight E85 on stock fueling system which doesnt sound like its running two N55 pumps IMO.
 

martymil

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But how well do the s55 hpfp pumps handle being pushed at that level ?

Are they ok or at their ragged edge ?
 

BQTuning

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But how well do the s55 hpfp pumps handle being pushed at that level ?

Are they ok or at their ragged edge ?

I dont know cause logs were never posted that I can find to take a look at the HPFP performance. I sent a message to CaryTheLabelGuy - Cary Jordan requesting for a log. If someone knows him please reach out to him.
 

fmorelli

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@NoQuarter has had a few other priorities he's had to focus on, but I have it on pretty good authority that he's soon getting this ball moving forward again. In the mean time, I provide some fuel porn for anticipated mule #2: S55 pumps with N54 rail modified by Omar @ @Hydra Performance to support two hard line inputs. Here's to 2019 seeing the N54 advance through the community contributors!

Filippo

IMG_20190205_090351.jpg
 

The Convert

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That has me very curious how the oem put the bungs on. They look like the threaded end was micro tig’d into the bing, but the bing just looks like it was brazed on. I wonder if the bing welds are on the inside? No way braze joints are holding all that fuel pressure.