VPG 777 WHP DI ONLY

[08_335i]

Wow so the injectors are totally fine as-is (and there is potentially even MORE room there if ever needed?)

Was purely a secondary HPFP control+LPFP flow issue?

Is the SS controller map to be sold/given when buying a double barrel kit?

The injectors were never the limiting factor to begin with. I don't recall what the exact number was, but I'm fairly sure a BMW tech researched the flow of the injectors to be WAY beyond what we would ever need even in these extremely high powered applications.

I wonder what happens when you suddenly enter limp mode, how long does the PI keep spraying?

This would be good to know... I know Terry has been doing a lot of tuning work to make it safer for this logic.

 

[Antbox]

As much as I'm not a fan of Tony, it's nice seeing you guys push the envelope and see what's possible.

 

[JBacon335]

Direct injection is what allows us to have the compression we do and all the boost we run. Why not have it do everything and keep the benefit of direct injection without having to add a whole second fuel delivery system that's just the same design everything has used since the 80s? I'm actually loving this development

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Sorry, but no one is going to be modifying these injectors. Once they are maxed at 3600psi (whatever WHP that ends up), the only other option for more fuel DI only will be increasing injection window.

Pretty much. Modifying DI injectors isn't on our list of things we'd consider... but we have plenty of room to work with what we have thus far.

 

[101duck]

Direct injection is what allows us to have the compression we do and all the boost we run. Why not have it do everything and keep the benefit of direct injection without having to add a whole second fuel delivery system that's just the same design everything has used since the 80s? I'm actually loving this development

The DI helps with compression on pump gas, but with e85 DI or PI the compression isn't as much of a factor.


This is a great step forward. the current PI offerings are very, how would you say, barbaric. They get the job done sure, but this would be a much nicer and safer way of pushing the envelope.

Looking forward to further results on DI only. GG VTT

 

[Abacus38]

Yes couple of members and myself already did the math on how much these injectors can flow. They're a little over 3000cc injectors. We all knew they could flow its just getting the second hpfp to work and the injection windows when you want to rev to 8k+. Furthermore E85 being direct injected makes a big difference. It increases the effective octane over it being port injected. MIT did a white paper on the subject. Lastly the PI kits are pretty straight forward the only thing they are lacking is control hence why I won't run PI until Syvecs system is released.

 

[TwinTurboWagon]

Yes, its more important. If you have a injector that is even slightly questionable. On PI you can get away with it as you are not asking them to do so much, this system will find any weaknesses in your fuel system, but I did find under 30 psi, its not nearly as sensitive, I was making in the 740-750 range over, and over, and over on about 27-28 psi, when I turned it up a little bit, I had to swap two injectors to keep it out of fuel induced misfires. The more boost you run, the more sensitive it becomes.

Where it is more sensitive, since this is all through DI, if something were to go wrong the DME and fuel system can react quickly.

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Where it is more sensitive, since this is all through DI, if something were to go wrong the DME and fuel system can react quickly.

Yeah the ECU logic is the same but the fuel system is more sensitive to injectors when approaching the limits of how much fuel you can spray in a short window. Basically if you have an injector that's at 80% that's fine if you want 400 whp, might be ok at 600 whp, and isn't going to cut it at 700 whp nevermind 770 whp.

 

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

I think the original appeal was maintaining DME control

Now the PI comparison looks like this

$1200DB vs $900 rail
$700 hpfp vs $100 Walbro
PIA install vs Easy install
$1100 oem injectors (replacement cost only) vs $400
SS controller vs SS controller

This is much cleaner as far as retaining factory look / function but definitely not the most cost efficient.
Maybe I'm missing something

Funny the guy that was emailing last week asking about DI only details, saying he did not want to run PI, etc, etc is all of sudden bashing the cost. Maybe he is upset I argued with him about shitty Brisk plugs? Either way pretty ironic, and funny

 

[R.G.]

Funny the guy that was emailing last week asking about DI only details, saying he did not want to run PI, etc, etc is all of sudden bashing the cost. Maybe he is upset I argued with him about shitty Brisk plugs? Either way pretty ironic, and funny

Well when the response to my email is it has been out for 2 years and yet there are zero cars that I know running it other then your own shop car, trying to understand if it is the cost or if it something else.
I found one review and it was on N54tech about his product failing and then the replacement failing and then that replacement failing. What is ironic is you of all people complaining about a new product not meeting your expectations.

Edit: Review
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40976

 

[Abacus38]

Yeah the ECU logic is the same but the fuel system is more sensitive to injectors when approaching the limits of how much fuel you can spray in a short window. Basically if you have an injector that's at 80% that's fine if you want 400 whp, might be ok at 600 whp, and isn't going to cut it at 700 whp nevermind 770 whp.

IS the DB system modular meaning you can buy the single barrel and eventually upgrade to the double barrel?

 

[Flinchy]

The injectors were never the limiting factor to begin with. I don't recall what the exact number was, but I'm fairly sure a BMW tech researched the flow of the injectors to be WAY beyond what we would ever need even in these extremely high powered applications.

This would be good to know... I know Terry has been doing a lot of tuning work to make it safer for this logic.

Nah the best we got is a few of us did some math given continentals specs - if they were port injectors you could run at 100% DC, they're equiv to about 2500 or 3000cc/min, insane

But limited injection window, especially at high rpm, time to open and close, how many injection events etc, if you get a single stroke you're (by the math) limited to 600whp or something from memory. Obviously the injectors flow more than their specs and or the window is wider than anyone thought without adjusting it

 

[Flinchy]

hmm... so you are saying i will hit pump gas octane limit before i hit hpfp limits?

Definitely

 

[Abacus38]

Me personally i think octane limit would be somewhere around 650whp on pump if you used a 67mm turbo

 

[AzNdevil]

Me personally i think octane limit would be somewhere around 650whp on pump if you used a 67mm turbo

well...no ST kits for RHD so i am SOL

 

[Erichale77]

well...no ST kits for RHD so i am SOL

Thought Motiv has a 750 and 820 xona manifold for rhd?

 

[Flinchy]

well...no ST kits for RHD so i am SOL

I believe 6boost is/was making a Mani

There's a few running around Australia, some custom some you can buy. If you talk to 101 motorsport and throw $10k at them, they'd make you one of theirs lol

I believe one shop somehow got a motiv to fit in Australia, but it's really fucky?

Another shop got the super rb's to fit by machining a custom slimmer steering shaft. They said it sucked to do haha

There's yet another shop building a race car with twin gtx28's, but an insane amount of precision fab to achieve it, never be mass Market.

 

[AzNdevil]

I believe 6boost is/was making a Mani

There's a few running around Australia, some custom some you can buy. If you talk to 101 motorsport and throw $10k at them, they'd make you one of theirs lol

I believe one shop somehow got a motiv to fit in Australia, but it's really fucky?

Another shop got the super rb's to fit by machining a custom slimmer steering shaft. They said it sucked to do haha

There's yet another shop building a race car with twin gtx28's, but an insane amount of precision fab to achieve it, never be mass Market.

I remember asking Motiv in the N5x Enthusiast Facebook group and they said they were working with "someone" for fitment on RHD cars. Then a bunch of people said it would never be complete and I guess they were right cause I never heard back from anyone or see new products for RHD being launched .

Custom is out of the question at least locally, hacking with a hammer sure but... not something I am looking for. The steering shaft is in the way of everything lol. This has been an issue since E36 days on RHD cars.

Also, I am not an early adopter and I can't install it myself so I guess we shall see if theres anything in the future.

 

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

Everyone forgets the GC's bolt on to all RHD cars, we have quite a few people running them. Can have this exact set up on your RHD N54...

 

[08_335i]

Me personally i think octane limit would be somewhere around 650whp on pump if you used a 67mm turbo

Not sure about that, I run 20psi on a 5862 91 OCT and sometimes have timing pull. Up it to 23psi, and get real good timing pull. I make 500rwhp on 20psi. Need my port meth to go beyond those levels of boost. My elevation does have some effect though at 5300 ft.