Datrem-Auto of Quebec creates Twin charged 2009 135

doublespaces

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I had a short conversation with the shop owners of Datrem-Auto (Michael and Dave) about this project and managed to get a few photographs of what may be the first twin charged N54. It uses a M62 clutch type supercharger from a MB which they may consider controlling with a JB4. In a week or two they will have more concrete information available. They will be pulling it out and showing the bracket and everything involved in making it work! Regardless if you think this worth doing or not, I think its a very interesting project and very unique. A breath of fresh air after seeing the same things being done over and over. (I also know this is not a new idea, but it is new to this platform):


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doublespaces

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This is really a great use of that cavity available in the LHD cars, since there is pretty much nothing there except the steering column.
 
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dyezak

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I’ve generally heard this called “compound charging” or “compound induction”. Complicated and interesting but little real world benefit. Would be a cool shop car or Sean car to showcase inginuity, creativeness, and capability. Drive business.
 

Cheezy

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If im seeing correctly the turbo is feeding the supercharger? Wouldn't it be more beneficial for the supercharger to feed the turbo? Especially if you wanted to run a giant turbo?
 

The Convert

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If im seeing correctly the turbo is feeding the supercharger? Wouldn't it be more beneficial for the supercharger to feed the turbo? Especially if you wanted to run a giant turbo?
Good catch. That doesn't make sense at all...
 

Aaron

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I mis-read the photos, they are difficult to understand what's going on there, but I think I got it now.

Looks like the turbo charge pipe goes from the intercooler to the blower inlet, then the blower outlet goes direct to the intake manifold.

Low RPM the blower will be sucking from the turbo, which will spin the compressor fan, but I doubt it'll spin it fast enough to cause problems or overrev at such a relatively small air flow (8psi low RPM). The blower will have boost off idle, which will spool the turbo stupid fast. You've got the blower intake sucking the compressor fan, and then a significantly increased exhaust volume and energy. Now as the turbo comes on, the blower will become a huge restriction. And up top, I'm not sure how the blower will react to seeing 25psi on it's intake. Maybe add a few psi before feeding that to the motor? If that's the case it's no bueno, the blower is ridiculously inefficient at those flow/pressure levels, and not being intercooled will compound the problems.
 
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The Convert

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The way I see it is the turbo system is the same. The blower outlet, which is directly under the charge pipe, plumbs directly into the charge pipe, just a simple T. So the blower is not intercooled.

If this is the case, I am confused about one thing... The blower by itself flows enough air to make, at a minimum, 6 psi to redline. Once the turbo comes on you've got 20 psi. So what happens when both are boosting, up top? I'm not thinking clearly today, but I'm thinking 26 psi. I'm thinking they need a way to disable/bypass the blower when the turbo comes on. And in this case, that transition is probably hell to tune for, and never smooth.

On a side note, this car probably spools the ST stupid fast. With the off-idle boost of the roots blower, you've got a significant increase in exhaust energy and volume at very low rpm, and being low rpm the engine's flow is not very high. I wouldn't be surprised if this turbo comes on like OEM twins.
I doubt any of that is accurate. The blower is going to be sucking air through the turbo, and fighting whatever pressure is in the exhaust the whole time from trying to over spin the turbo relative to the exhaust flow. I would think that this setup is hell on the turbo and its longevity.
 

Aaron

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I mis-read the photos, they are difficult to understand what's going on there, but I think I got it now. I edited my original post to align with my current thoughts on the matter.
 
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The Convert

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I wonder if the turbine wheel spinning faster than the exhaust is pushing it will cause over scavenging, sucking more air and fuel out of the combustion chamber than desired and actually have a negative impact on low rpm performance?
 

Aaron

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I can see that happening, however the time that there is air/fuel in the cylinder, and the exhaust valves are open, is extremely short. And as soon as there's positive pressure from the blower, it'll quitte quickly overcome the exhaust that the turbine is able to pull.

The turbine fan spinning also causes low pressure in the exhaust, meaning less restriction to the engine.

I bet the low and mid range performance will be quite strong. But it'll flatten out up top, much like OEM turbos. I imagine the dyno will be about stock turbos down low, less than stock turbos in the midrange, and about equal to stock turbos up top.

It's cool to see something different, but there's no way this is worth the cost, complexity, and reliability hit. If you want 700whp with a OEM low end, there's cheaper and easier solutions for that.
 

doublespaces

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Isn't the shotgun installed below this point, closer to the subframe? I'm wondering why this space wasn't used. I'm sure there is a reason.