Who has this Crank Seal Protection Plate?

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The guard says 25 ft-lbs on the packaging so 34Nm rounded. The capture doesn't have any specs, so I am assuming it's 35Nm as required for the OEM bolts. Might shoot Tony an email and confirm just to be safe. It even came with some gummy bears, and a necklace thingamabob lol... I ordered some blue Loctite as well. Should I do a lower torque because I am using Loctite, or just stick with 25 ft-lbs?

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Holy crap 34 nm iirc is so much higher than all the other non yielded m8 bolts on the bed plate, I would start to be worried about stripping threads. Let me double check one more time on ISTA.

Blue loctite is not a torque multiplier (according to their instructions) so no need to drop torque. However I would probably not put 34 nm on the bed plate bolts that hold the crank seal guard in, especially since all the other recommendations are in the low 20 nm range.
 
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The guard says 25 ft-lbs on the packaging so 34Nm rounded. The capture doesn't have any specs, so I am assuming it's 35Nm as required for the OEM bolts. Might shoot Tony an email and confirm just to be safe. It even came with some gummy bears, and a necklace thingamabob lol... I ordered some blue Loctite as well. Should I do a lower torque because I am using Loctite, or just stick with 25 ft-lbs?

View attachment 50512
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Ok for the standard screw connection chart on ISTA (engine section) M8 bolts have the following specifications:

<!---->Standard screw connection
4AZScrews and nuts
M8​
19 Nm±3​

So 34 nm is way too fricken high if you are talking about the m8 bed plate bolts, especially with grade 12.9 fasteners on an aluminium block with aluminium threads.
 

BMWHoochie

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Ok for the standard screw connection chart on ISTA (engine section) M8 bolts have the following specifications:

<!---->Standard screw connection
4AZScrews and nuts
M8​
19 Nm±3​

So 34 nm is way too fricken high if you are talking about the m8 bed plate bolts, especially with grade 12.9 fasteners on an aluminium block with aluminium threads.

Yeah, it does seem a bit high. I will shoot @[email protected] an email and confirm before I start the installation. Really appreciate all the advice and help. Very much appreciated.
 

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It's a non load bearing bolt. Cinch it with a bit of loctite blue and all will be just fine.

Filippo
+1

A small dab of blue loctite and a bit of torque and you'll be fine. Don't go too lose because it does pinch the block together and you don't want vibrations to compromise the liquid seal bmw uses so I'd go 19 nm, and that's it. 34 nm is way too fricken high and you risk stripping it.
 
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BMWHoochie

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I forgot to add, when you get loctite get the 243 medium strength blue because it will work on inactive metals like stainless steel and aluminum. If you get permatex get the surface insensitive version of the blue thread locker.

Just checked and I got the 243 so I am good to go! Lucked out on that lol. Really appreciate the advice. Thanks again for everything.

Thanks!
God Bless!!
 
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Dec 17, 2020
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You guys are using the specs for the BMW bolts. These are NOT the BMW bolts. 25 ft/lbs is on the low side for the bolts we include which are 12.9.

 
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+1

A small dab of blue loctite and a bit of torque and you'll be fine. Don't go too lose because it does pinch the block together and you don't want vibrations to compromise the liquid seal bmw uses so I'd go 19 nm, and that's it. 34 nm is way too fricken high and you risk stripping it.
LOL, no you dont.
 

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LOL, no you dont.
No, 19 +/- 3 nm is for generic fasteners going into the bed plate. The bmw m8 bolts going into the bed plate is like 8 nm + 90°.


You cannot look at optimal torque specs for a grade 12.9 steel bolt and use it on an aluminum female thread, that risks stripping it out or permanently damaging it. You have to factor in the pull out torque for the female threads when using a stronger bolt on a softer thread... So it's safer to use bmw's generic bolt torque spec (non yielded bolts) on the bed plate because it already encompasses that. Unless you like to install aluminum helicoils (which is what bmw specs to repair bed plate bolts) then go right ahead - but even then aluminum helicoils will also require aluminum torque specs which are much lower than steel....


You also use thread locker to prevent galvanic corrosion because it's 2 different materials. Also to prevent the bolts from vibrating loose as they are no longer tty.
 
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So you used the wrong grade bolts, not surprising.
Was literally going to post that. Why would you use grade 12.9 bolts for this application? The optimal torque range is so far out. The next problem would be the slots on your crank seal plate would shift long before the bolts broke. Next the soft aluminum plate would break before the bolts broke.

Also I hate using steel bolts where not required because they rust out even when coated because the tools chip that coating. Sometimes stronger =/= better. This is one of them times...
 
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Also I hate using steel bolts where not required because they rust out even when coated because the tools chip that coating. Sometimes stronger =/= better. This is one of them times...

Depends on the quality of the fastener plating, the quality of the tools being used to fasten, and I suppose how nasty the environment is in which the car lives :tonguewink: .

I do like loctite for this application, personally. It's not a load bearing bolt, no religion around torque spec, etc. Snugged steel with blue loctite is definitely not everyone's jam, but fine for this application IMHO.
 

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Depends on the quality of the fastener plating, the quality of the tools being used to fasten, and I suppose how nasty the environment is in which the car lives :tonguewink: .

I do like loctite for this application, personally. It's not a load bearing bolt, no religion around torque spec, etc. Snugged steel with blue loctite is definitely not everyone's jam, but fine for this application IMHO.
Well if their grade 12.9 bolts are from the same supplier as their cbc grade 12.9 bolts the plating isn't very good - there have been reports of rusting on f80post.

For tools just standard hex bits from your local tool place lol.

But yeah environment matters.

Yup since it's not a load bearing area I like to get stainless fasteners or aluminum fasteners, no need to deal with rust. Then some loctite for vibrations.
 

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Also wanted to add since it's not load bearing no need to over torque that with ratings meant for steel - unless like I said earlier you love helicoils. So imo a bit of an oversight on the engineering aspect of this plate by vtt.

So it's best to follow bmws torque specs to maintain the proper pressure on the bed plate seal and not risk stripping anything. Plus that blue loctite.
 
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LOL man look at this discussion, gotta love it. We use 12.9 bolts for just about everything. They are the highest grade, and we prefer overkill on strength. You do not have to go to the recommended TQ spec if you feel it's too tight. As for the bolts themselves. We get them from a very well-regarded bolt manufacture locally in California. They are made in the USA, and we pick them up directly from the warehouse. They are not plated they use a coating on them which is black oxide. This is not like Zinc if in a very damp or salty environment the head will indeed rust, but they are MUCH stronger than a SS bolt which may not, we will always lean towards function over fashion. People have this misunderstanding that SS bolts are best due to corrosion resistance, SS bolts are weaker than the lowest grade metric steel bolt. These are going into the TQ plate we would never use SS bolts there regardless of a little rust on the head if things stay wet or get salt on them. We have sold almost 700 of these since Jan 1st all with 25 ft/lbs instructions. You know how many emails from people we have gotten cussing us out for stripping their block with our elevated TQ spec. I'll let you guess, but it rhymes with Hero. Good to see nothing on the forums changes, it's no wonder I rarely come here. Your feedback is appreciated and noted.
 

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LOL man look at this discussion, gotta love it. We use 12.9 bolts for just about everything. They are the highest grade, and we prefer overkill on strength. You do not have to go to the recommended TQ spec if you feel it's too tight. As for the bolts themselves. We get them from a very well-regarded bolt manufacture locally in California. They are made in the USA, and we pick them up directly from the warehouse. They are not plated they use a coating on them which is black oxide. This is not like Zinc if in a very damp or salty environment the head will indeed rust, but they are MUCH stronger than a SS bolt which may not, we will always lean towards function over fashion. People have this misunderstanding that SS bolts are best due to corrosion resistance, SS bolts are weaker than the lowest grade metric steel bolt. These are going into the TQ plate we would never use SS bolts there regardless of a little rust on the head if things stay wet or get salt on them. We have sold almost 700 of these since Jan 1st all with 25 ft/lbs instructions. You know how many emails from people we have gotten cussing us out for stripping their block with our elevated TQ spec. I'll let you guess, but it rhymes with Hero. Good to see nothing on the forums changes, it's no wonder I rarely come here. Your feedback is appreciated and noted.
That's not how you're supposed to engineer things properly... Overkill =/= quality.

When you choose a fastener you have to take a few things into account:

1) how much torque the application requires
2) the female thread material
3) pitch, and length
4) head width

this will determine what grade bolt you are supposed to use, because a bolt exerts alot of its clamping force through its preload aka the stretching of the bolt itself. If you choose a bolt that is too strong for the material to get the optimal clamping force your preload must be very high (hence why the recommended torque for a grade 12.9 bolt is so high), and that can exceed the pull out strength of the female threads which is not good. So rather than going over kill for no reason you can pick a bolt with a more suitable preload range for the application so it can exert the proper clamping force at a lower torque range. Hence why in this application bmw use an aluminium bolt which is the weakest of them all...... Since aluminium tty bolts of the appropiate length aren't the easiest to find to match what bmw specs for the bed plate, the next most appropriate bolt is stainless as that preload range is perfect for the torque specs bmw calls for.

An analogy for this is going forged internals designed for 1k whp power levels for stock power, its over kill and undoubtedly stronger than the stock internals, but is it better? No because forged motors have a shorter life than cast motors because more clearance is required for forged pistons as they expand and contract more than hyper eutectic pistons. This means more piston slap on cold starts and over time these engines wear much faster - none of my built ej257 sti's lasted more than 80k km before piston slap and oil burning was really bad. Another analogy is a stage 3+ clutch for stock power, is is stronger? Yes but what for the stock clutch can do the job at stock power just as well and drive ability is better. It is all about building to the required demands in some cases, and over building sometimes is not better. This is one of them times...


Great to know you get quality bolts... But in this case fashion and strength is irrelevant. Neither is needed just a bolt that meets the task it needs to do, and in this case stainless fits the job better than a grade 12.9 ss bolt.


Well thats good to hear no one has stripped out their bed plate yet... But as a manufacturer you have to take the responsibility to determine what torque specs bmw calls for and ensure your design suits it, otherwise you risk screwing over your customers who don't know better, don't have access to the TIS, and follow your instructions like they are the only truth. Because if they run into issues who ends up having to front the repair bill? Exactly the end user, so maybe instead of being upset try to understand the feedback and improve. You don't loose anything but you have the potential to gain more trust from the customer when they know you are paying attention to every detail like torque specs, and aren't assigning arbitrary numbers.

BTW I have nothing against VTT, I'm not one of those "haters" that bashes you on every post. I am a fair end user, I compliment you when you deserve it and correct you when I believe you are wrong. In the past I have purchased products from you guys and have had nothing but high praises to say regarding your immensely quick shipping speeds and product processing times. I also liked how nice your CBC quality was.