RB GF Dyno Results- 93 and e85- 681whp

[pbondar]

Having gone through a process of 20 iterations of tunes all logged and analysed ..with one hardware change and 3 sets of dyno runs..

Surely a key point is how close to the edge do you want to push your car too..both your turbos and the rngine.

I guess if you are just drag stripping it then who cares..but if it’s used as a going places vehicle thrn it matters..

If you are making plenty of boost then you either run into knock issues or major timing corrections as limiting factors taking into account the type of fuelling and the quality of those fuels..

On the same fuel 99 Ron we could get 25-30 BHP more in 500 with more timing corrections…we opted for less corrections..you could argue we left BHP on the table…

 

[Thunderstorm1250]

@langsbr

Without the meth and boostane, the car dyno'd 495 rwhp. Neither scenarios were pushing to the max, no timing drops.

Just providing another data point...

Eric

 

[langsbr]

@langsbr

Without the meth and boostane, the car dyno'd 495 rwhp. Neither scenarios were pushing to the max, no timing drops.

Just providing another data point...

Eric

That is in line with what I'd expect. These cars are severely octane limited.

 

[IQraceworks]

That is in line with what I'd expect. These cars are severely octane limited.

Yep...according to my draggy and 1/4 mile times...and virtual dyno, I'm only making around 500hp at 20psi with RB twos on 93 fuel. But when I jump up to my E40 tune at 25psi, I'm pushing close to 585-ish HP. These things can make a lot more power on higher octane fuel. I was making 10.90 passes launching super easy in 2nd gear with my RB twos........then all of a sudden about a month ago, I noticed the car with idling funny. Did a compression test...have one dead cylinder. I'm pretty sure it's a cracked ring and/or ringland. They motors with their cast pistons just aren't as tough as come people believe.

Looking forward to getting the motor back together with forged internals, bolting on some slicks, and trying to knock out some 10.70's or better with a hard launch!

 

[Thunderstorm1250]

@IQraceworks : That sucks...

So are RB GF's considered the highest flowing hybrids/twins available? Or GC's or MMPs? Reliability aside, which blow the most air?

I'm assuming if one is running on pump gas, you want to get the largest twins available (ignoring ST option) in order to run at the lowest boost pressure and lowest temperature.

Regards,

Eric

 

[pbondar]

The bigger the turbo the worse the spool up..so yes bigger turbos give lower compression related temperature rises but at the expense of spool..depends on what use you are planning for..

 

[wheela]

The bigger the turbo the worse the spool up..so yes bigger turbos give lower compression related temperature rises but at the expense of spool..depends on what use you are planning for..

Even then, bigger turbo = lower temperature rise depends where you're operating on the compressor map for the given turbo, so even this generalization isn't always true.

For example, I plan on running 93 only at under 20 psi. I was deciding between a BW 8374 (79 lb/min), and the larger BW 8474 (95 lb/min), so I used matchbot to compare the two. When running both turbos at 20 psi, I was getting lower outlet temps from the smaller 8374 across the board, except for right at 7k rpm where the 8474 finally had a lower outlet temp. The reason is that a 3 liter engine at 20psi flows right over the efficiency island for the 8374. But 3 liter engine and 20 psi was not enough flow to get to the larger 8474's efficiency island. If the engine displacement was larger, or I planned on running more boost the story would change. I point this out to highlight that spool may not be the only thing you're compromising by going as big as possible. At my parameters, I'll be getting lower outlet temps and better power performance from the smaller 8374. This example is a bit of a special case, as both turbos have the exact same turbine, but you get the idea.

For me, that's a big plus for full frame turbo - you can find compressor maps for a lot of full frame turbos and see where you're at. And if you go Borg Warner, you can use matchbot for their turbos which takes into account turbine performance as well, so a huge plus in my opinion. I've yet to see a compressor map for a hybrid frame turbo.

 

[pbondar]

Even then, bigger turbo = lower temperature rise depends where you're operating on the compressor map for the given turbo, so even this generalization isn't always true.

For example, I plan on running 93 only at under 20 psi. I was deciding between a BW 8374 (79 lb/min), and the larger BW 8474 (95 lb/min), so I used matchbot to compare the two. When running both turbos at 20 psi, I was getting lower outlet temps from the smaller 8374 across the board, except for right at 7k rpm where the 8474 finally had a lower outlet temp. The reason is that a 3 liter engine at 20psi flows right over the efficiency island for the 8374. But 3 liter engine and 20 psi was not enough flow to get to the larger 8474's efficiency island. If the engine displacement was larger, or I planned on running more boost the story would change. I point this out to highlight that spool may not be the only thing you're compromising by going as big as possible. At my parameters, I'll be getting lower outlet temps and better power performance from the smaller 8374. This example is a bit of a special case, as both turbos have the exact same turbine, but you get the idea.

For me, that's a big plus for full frame turbo - you can find compressor maps for a lot of full frame turbos and see where you're at. And if you go Borg Warner, you can use matchbot for their turbos which takes into account turbine performance as well, so a huge plus in my opinion. I've yet to see a compressor map for a hybrid frame turbo.

Good to know..as always these things are more complex and multi dimensional..I just put my faith in TTE since:

They are German
They build their products in Germany
And many hooray Henrys use their products in their Porksters and Mercies !-

I'm content to stick at 500 bhp+ (crank) for road use here in Scotland..

 

[Torgus]

Even then, bigger turbo = lower temperature rise depends where you're operating on the compressor map for the given turbo, so even this generalization isn't always true.

For example, I plan on running 93 only at under 20 psi. I was deciding between a BW 8374 (79 lb/min), and the larger BW 8474 (95 lb/min), so I used matchbot to compare the two. When running both turbos at 20 psi, I was getting lower outlet temps from the smaller 8374 across the board, except for right at 7k rpm where the 8474 finally had a lower outlet temp. The reason is that a 3 liter engine at 20psi flows right over the efficiency island for the 8374. But 3 liter engine and 20 psi was not enough flow to get to the larger 8474's efficiency island. If the engine displacement was larger, or I planned on running more boost the story would change. I point this out to highlight that spool may not be the only thing you're compromising by going as big as possible. At my parameters, I'll be getting lower outlet temps and better power performance from the smaller 8374. This example is a bit of a special case, as both turbos have the exact same turbine, but you get the idea.

For me, that's a big plus for full frame turbo - you can find compressor maps for a lot of full frame turbos and see where you're at. And if you go Borg Warner, you can use matchbot for their turbos which takes into account turbine performance as well, so a huge plus in my opinion. I've yet to see a compressor map for a hybrid frame turbo.

Well said. No one can afford to make a compressor map with a hybrid turbo and it's all a guestimate. This is exactly why Frankenturbo got busted years ago for making fake compressor maps.

Matchbot is sweet. Learning how to read a compressor maps is very useful as well. Let's you know which turbo(s) to run to meet your goals.

 

[langsbr]

I knew Frankenturbo would get some negativity somehow - but I think Doug is doing a good job still supporting the N54 crowd. MMP is bust, Rob doesn't do many RB GF setups, and who the hell would buy VTT now?

Here's a chart I made comparing Steven Nelson's latest dyno of the new F54 turbos that Frankenturbo is releasing. They have a 20.5T compressor housing and larger AR turbine housing - I don't know the wheel sizes yet - to veer90 (he was active for a long time here but disappeared) 6266 setup. His Doc race was one of the highest dyno'd 6266s I've seen. You cannot deny the low end advantage that the 'hybrids' have. There's also likely some error from looking at shitty dyno sheets online rather than raw winpep data, plus - who the hell uses MPH instead of RPM. I did a formula to figure out RPM based on HP and torque, so I'll post that graph too.

F54 - 28psi 13.5* timing - full E85 with PI, 3.5 VRSF exhaust

6266 - 35psi (tapering to 33) - 15.5* timing - full e85 with PI, unknown exhaust

You can see the single makes more torque and power, but a lot of that has to be contributed to the additional boost.

I did also find a dyno Terry did a while back of a 6266 on 28PSI that made 700whp, looked like around 13* timing. It won't be a totally accurate comparison since it was done with RPM graphing and back calculating the rpm from a MPH graph isn't always perfect science (damn inertia dynos).

I think the Frankenturbos are probably the best value you can get right now for a set of turbos. A lot more power than the China 19Ts for not a lot more money. 2500 bucks and they include inlets and outlets. That's a bargain.

 

[Torgus]

I knew Frankenturbo would get some negativity somehow - but I think Doug is doing a good job still supporting the N54 crowd. MMP is bust, Rob doesn't do many RB GF setups, and who the hell would buy VTT now?

Here's a chart I made comparing Steven Nelson's latest dyno of the new F54 turbos that Frankenturbo is releasing. They have a 20.5T compressor housing and larger AR turbine housing - I don't know the wheel sizes yet - to veer90 (he was active for a long time here but disappeared) 6266 setup. His Doc race was one of the highest dyno'd 6266s I've seen. You cannot deny the low end advantage that the 'hybrids' have. There's also likely some error from looking at shitty dyno sheets online rather than raw winpep data, plus - who the hell uses MPH instead of RPM. I did a formula to figure out RPM based on HP and torque, so I'll post that graph too.

F54 - 28psi 13.5* timing - full E85 with PI, 3.5 VRSF exhaust

6266 - 35psi (tapering to 33) - 15.5* timing - full e85 with PI, unknown exhaust

View attachment 85594

You can see the single makes more torque and power, but a lot of that has to be contributed to the additional boost.

I did also find a dyno Terry did a while back of a 6266 on 28PSI that made 700whp, looked like around 13* timing. It won't be a totally accurate comparison since it was done with RPM graphing and back calculating the rpm from a MPH graph isn't always perfect science (damn inertia dynos).

I think the Frankenturbos are probably the best value you can get right now for a set of turbos. A lot more power than the China 19Ts for not a lot more money. 2500 bucks and they include inlets and outlets. That's a bargain.

That graph looks a bit wonky, I know you had to put two graphs together and I appreciate the attempt to compare but I don't think this is accurate. The twins tq is so much lower at redline 550 WTQ vs. the 6266 at roughly 650WTQ but makes almost the same HP at red line? HP is a function TQ over time. Look at where the HP/TQ meets on each graph. HP/TQ always meet at 5252RPM. In this chart they meet at two different places. Also the 6266 is making gobs more TQ almost across the entire MPH of the graph. This is not what anyone would expect with the twins only make a small amount more WTQ earlier. For a 3/4 of the graph the 6266 makes more WTQ. Only the beginning 1/4 does it show the wins making more TQ albeit rather small.



Originally Posted by fredcase, Frankenturbo:

Used windshield washer tank for meth injection. Well documented to cause fires on the n54.

Claimed inlets are useless on stock turbos.

Cranked timing to the moon. Turned off knock detection blaming the stock dmfw for "false" misfires. Blew compression on 2 cylinders, then blamed jb4 for not logging timing.

Busted making fake compressor maps on the audi world. Did a fake apology. You tube videos all about this.

Posted pictures of cast manifolds with serious casting problems and cuts into the water jackets.

Claims his turbos are made in china, then he takes them apart and re balances them, in house, then emails leaked from vtt show that someone else was doing that for him, then stopped dealing with doug, due to his shady unprofessional business practices.

Doug claims has nothing to do with beta customers, then it's revealed he offers $500 discount for dyno runs from beta testers.


How anybody can take this guy seriously is a mystery to me:

Some reading pleasure:
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1222395 <--The original dumpster fire of a thread.
https://www.audizine.com/forum/show...bo-Statement-on-Our-Published-Compressor-Maps <-- Doug has the data to prove his compressor map is real but will not share it. So full of shit. Doug is a proven liar to put $$$ in his pocket. People don't change.

Frankenturbo Failure

This is my honest and unaltered experience with Frankenturbo AKA Doug Harper. I will try to keep it short. On Jan 20 I Realized the failure of my rear turbo after what I believe was pushing my Stock 60k mile turbos too hard. Between a stage 2+ tune and right after installing xhp stage 3 which...

www.spoolstreet.com

Technical - FrankenTurbo F21Bi Turbo Upgrade

http://www.frankenturbo.com/new/F21Bi.html **If this is already a thread please delete but I couldn't find a thread on just this item** The point of this thread is just to talk about THIS turbo offering, not anyone elses. So, this has been announced for a few months, but I haven't seen any...

www.spoolstreet.com

Opinions on FrankenTurbo F21Bi Turbo Upgrade

Welcome to a cesspool of haters when it comes to Doug and Frankenturbo. I hope you get the feedback you want given the general attitude towards him and his products.

www.spoolstreet.com

Frankenturbo pinned thread

Hey all! I was thinking that maybe we could pin this post and make it the central post for people running the Frankenturbo twins to update everyone on how they like them. I think this would be helpful so that we don't have 20 threads with the same posts. Thanks!

www.spoolstreet.com

Would anyone like to see the bomb 'Frankenturbo' Creator is making?

I get drunk, I get bored. And then I fuck with people on Facebook when I can't sleep. This however takes the Cake for most retarded shit I've seen in a long time. He keeps deleting my comments :cry: Behold, the Doug Harper HPFP solution. Screen shots below due to my instant ban

www.spoolstreet.com

Frankenturbo f23 OR K04?

So i'm really reading on this topic. Thinking of pulling the trigger next month on a turbo. Please explain why the F23 makes more power but it's cheaper? 🤔 supposely you can run it om stock injectors is that correct? Can some turbo gurus explain which one i should go and why?

www.audizine.com

He can barely speak, and certainly not intelligently about MHI turbo upgrades(BTW RB was using TD04 internals since 2012):

@WedgePerformance & @doug@frankenturbo What did it dyno? Can you post the graph and log please? Are they still on Wedge's car?


Doug has been 'working' on N54 turbos and promising 'amazing' results since 2016. Glad to see in almost 2024 he has it figured out 8 years later. Sorry but not a fan of Doug or FT.


All that being said 20.5Ts are slightly more than double the size as stock MHI N54 Twins(10T). In theory they should be able to make good numbers assuming the backpressure is not insane... @doug@frankenturbo you did measure the backpressure right?

There are still a hell of a lot more single turbos above 700whp than twins. This is for a reason.

 

[langsbr]

That graph looks a bit wonky, I know you had to put two graphs together and I appreciate the attempt to compare but I don't think this is accurate. The twins tq is so much lower at redline 550 WTQ vs. the 6266 at roughly 650WTQ but makes almost the same HP at red line? HP is a function TQ over time. Look at where the HP/TQ meets on each graph. HP/TQ always meet at 5252RPM. In this chart they meet at two different places. Also the 6266 is making gobs more TQ almost across the entire MPG of the graph. This is not what anyone would expect with the twins only make a small amount more WTQ earlier. For a 3/4 of the graph the 6266 makes more WTQ. Only the beginning 1/4 does it show the wins making more TQ albeit rather small.

Agreed, it's not a perfect scenario - the biggest issue is that it's done by speed, not rpm. The comparisons would be MUCH easier if the dyno operators had a damn brain. I THINK the dynos were done in the same gear as the speed sweep was the same between the 2. I will see if I can double check my numbers on these, and also back calculate to RPM to see if that gives a better comparison.


I also agree there are more 700whp dynos on singles than twins - in part because most people over turbo their car - it's easy to make 700whp on a setup if you have a 900 - 1000 whp turbo. To me that just makes for a boring daily - sure it's great on the top end when racing at 140mph, but sucks on the street light to light. Twins are typically pushed well past where they are efficient, but I do think it is good to see twins getting close to 800whp under 30psi and on a stock head. That's impressive.

 

[SLOWESTN54]

sure it's great on the top end when racing at 140mph, but sucks on the street light to light

Accelerating quickly in 1st gear was always a struggle until the turbo eventually lit.

 

[langsbr]

To add on he has been 'working' on N54 turbos and promising 'amazing' results since 2016. Glad to see in almost 2024 he has it figured out 8 years later.


Sorry but not a fan of Doug or FT.

I get you aren't a fan, but in one breath people would shit on him for taking so long, but at the some time, MMP rushed out his manifolds that were oversized and had a lot of lag and got shit on for "not doing proper R&D" so you can't win in this industry.

I didn't like Rob's attitude, but respect his products. I bought Mauricio's turbos because I thought he had a good engineering approach. Turns out he's a really shitty business person. Tony, well, 'nuff said. Never had an issue with Doug. I think he gets a bit harsh treatment from the N54 crowd - I know the VW people don't like him and call him out on the compressor housings. He likely was just trying to satisfy people that could not be satisfied regardless, and it backfired. Meh. He plainly admits his turbos are sourced overseas, but they are priced properly I think.

I'm a fan of twins, and I'd rather buy from Doug than Tony or those jokers at DAW. I don't think Rob puts much effort into N54 stuff and has too limited of a run and damn are they expensive.

 

[SLOWESTN54]

I get you aren't a fan, but in one breath people would shit on him for taking so long, but at the some time, MMP rushed out his manifolds that were oversized and had a lot of lag and got shit on for "not doing proper R&D" so you can't win in this industry.

I didn't like Rob's attitude, but respect his products. I bought Mauricio's turbos because I thought he had a good engineering approach. Turns out he's a really shitty business person. Tony, well, 'nuff said. Never had an issue with Doug. I think he gets a bit harsh treatment from the N54 crowd - I know the VW people don't like him and call him out on the compressor housings. He likely was just trying to satisfy people that could not be satisfied regardless, and it backfired. Meh. He plainly admits his turbos are sourced overseas, but they are priced properly I think.

I'm a fan of twins, and I'd rather buy from Doug than Tony or those jokers at DAW. I don't think Rob puts much effort into N54 stuff and has too limited of a run and damn are they expensive.

what about Hydra

 

[wheela]

That graph looks a bit wonky, I know you had to put two graphs together and I appreciate the attempt to compare but I don't think this is accurate. The twins tq is so much lower at redline 550 WTQ vs. the 6266 at roughly 650WTQ but makes almost the same HP at red line? HP is a function TQ over time. Look at where the HP/TQ meets on each graph. HP/TQ always meet at 5252RPM. In this chart they meet at two different places. Also the 6266 is making gobs more TQ almost across the entire MPH of the graph. This is not what anyone would expect with the twins only make a small amount more WTQ earlier. For a 3/4 of the graph the 6266 makes more WTQ. Only the beginning 1/4 does it show the wins making more TQ albeit rather small.



Originally Posted by fredcase, Frankenturbo:

Used windshield washer tank for meth injection. Well documented to cause fires on the n54.

Claimed inlets are useless on stock turbos.

Cranked timing to the moon. Turned off knock detection blaming the stock dmfw for "false" misfires. Blew compression on 2 cylinders, then blamed jb4 for not logging timing.

Busted making fake compressor maps on the audi world. Did a fake apology. You tube videos all about this.

Posted pictures of cast manifolds with serious casting problems and cuts into the water jackets.

Claims his turbos are made in china, then he takes them apart and re balances them, in house, then emails leaked from vtt show that someone else was doing that for him, then stopped dealing with doug, due to his shady unprofessional business practices.

Doug claims has nothing to do with beta customers, then it's revealed he offers $500 discount for dyno runs from beta testers.


How anybody can take this guy seriously is a mystery to me:

Some reading pleasure:
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1222395 <--The original dumpster fire of a thread.
https://www.audizine.com/forum/show...bo-Statement-on-Our-Published-Compressor-Maps <-- Doug has the data to prove his compressor map is real but will not share it. So full of shit. Doug is a proven liar to put $$$ in his pocket. People don't change.

Frankenturbo Failure

This is my honest and unaltered experience with Frankenturbo AKA Doug Harper. I will try to keep it short. On Jan 20 I Realized the failure of my rear turbo after what I believe was pushing my Stock 60k mile turbos too hard. Between a stage 2+ tune and right after installing xhp stage 3 which...

www.spoolstreet.com

Technical - FrankenTurbo F21Bi Turbo Upgrade

http://www.frankenturbo.com/new/F21Bi.html **If this is already a thread please delete but I couldn't find a thread on just this item** The point of this thread is just to talk about THIS turbo offering, not anyone elses. So, this has been announced for a few months, but I haven't seen any...

www.spoolstreet.com

Opinions on FrankenTurbo F21Bi Turbo Upgrade

Welcome to a cesspool of haters when it comes to Doug and Frankenturbo. I hope you get the feedback you want given the general attitude towards him and his products.

www.spoolstreet.com

Frankenturbo pinned thread

Hey all! I was thinking that maybe we could pin this post and make it the central post for people running the Frankenturbo twins to update everyone on how they like them. I think this would be helpful so that we don't have 20 threads with the same posts. Thanks!

www.spoolstreet.com

Would anyone like to see the bomb 'Frankenturbo' Creator is making?

I get drunk, I get bored. And then I fuck with people on Facebook when I can't sleep. This however takes the Cake for most retarded shit I've seen in a long time. He keeps deleting my comments :cry: Behold, the Doug Harper HPFP solution. Screen shots below due to my instant ban

www.spoolstreet.com

Frankenturbo f23 OR K04?

So i'm really reading on this topic. Thinking of pulling the trigger next month on a turbo. Please explain why the F23 makes more power but it's cheaper? 🤔 supposely you can run it om stock injectors is that correct? Can some turbo gurus explain which one i should go and why?

www.audizine.com

He can barely speak, and certainly not intelligently about MHI turbo upgrades(BTW RB was using TD04 internals since 2012):

@WedgePerformance & @doug@frankenturbo What did it dyno? Can you post the graph and log please? Are they still on Wedge's car?


Doug has been 'working' on N54 turbos and promising 'amazing' results since 2016. Glad to see in almost 2024 he has it figured out 8 years later. Sorry but not a fan of Doug or FT.


All that being said 20.5Ts are slightly more than double the size as stock MHI N54 Twins(10T). In theory they should be able to make good numbers assuming the backpressure is not insane... @doug@frankenturbo you did measure the backpressure right?

There are still a hell of a lot more single turbos above 700whp than twins. This is for a reason.

Holt shit, I'm gonna be busy for a while reading all those linked threads!! Good stuff as always

 

[SLOWESTN54]

I’m just gonna leave this here https://www.facebook.com/groups/N54tech/permalink/2027771400911277/?mibextid=W9rl1R

 

[martymil]

There are lots of people that don't have issues with VTT turbos including myself, the problem is there is certain individuals here
that will trash Tony and anyone that says good things about his products, so you won't be seeing any positive things said.

I'm coming onto 2 years on his F-RB's and the turbos have seen a few power cruises, a few track days and still going strong on my new engine
due to cracking the block.

Most people will blame the turbo manufacturer for their turbo failure, the real truth is their shitty install is what caused it.

It doesn't take much for a set of twins to go when you're running on the edge of their efficiency, most will keep rehashing bullshit stories to benefit their point on here that the owners have spun in the past to try and get free turbos out of their supplier.

 

[Thunderstorm1250]

There are lots of people that don't have issues with VTT turbos including myself, the problem is there is certain individuals here
that will trash Tony and anyone that says good things about his products, so you won't be seeing any positive things said.

I'm coming onto 2 years on his F-RB's and the turbos have seen a few power cruises, a few track days and still going strong on my new engine
due to cracking the block.

Most people will blame the turbo manufacturer for their turbo failure, the real truth is their shitty install is what caused it.

It doesn't take much for a set of twins to go when you're running on the edge of their efficiency, most will keep rehashing bullshit stories to benefit their point on here that the owners have spun in the past to try and get free turbos out of their supplier.

I installed VTT GC 2.0's in early 2021. I am pleased with them. I will admit, I don't have much to compare against. They are the only aftermarket turbos I've used. I don't drive my car very often, but when I do I drive it very hard.

Chris and Tony were very helpful and easy to work with. Being new to this platform, Chris spent almost an hour with me on the phone. Sharing knowledge and stories. He even recommended parts/components that he didnt sell. I interacted with Tony over email and he was super responsive and professional.

 

[RNM]

I installed VTT GC 2.0's in early 2021. I am pleased with them. I will admit, I don't have much to compare against. They are the only aftermarket turbos I've used. I don't drive my car very often, but when I do I drive it very hard.

Chris and Tony were very helpful and easy to work with. Being new to this platform, Chris spent almost an hour with me on the phone. Sharing knowledge and stories. He even recommended parts/components that he didnt sell. I interacted with Tony over email and he was super responsive and professional.

Of course he was super professional when he was selling you stuff. Get back to us when you need customer service on his shit products.