Pure Turbos Stage 3 (PS3) dyno results for N55

houtan

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Nov 2, 2017
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Yes, herein lies my problem: I'm EWG.

Something electronic still has to tell the EWG to do "anything", it's not mechanical/pnuematic like a PWG.
I am no expert but I don’t think it’s any different than pwg. You would leave the factory harness plugged into the boost solenoid, but not use it to control boost. The tune is set up the same way for the most part, the boost solenoid will be receiving a signal but in reality it will not impact anything. The boost control would all be done by the ebc and mac solenoid. The dme would control fuel, timing, etc.
I have absolutely no doubt that the PS3 is a more powerful turbo.

However, I'm not building a track/drag monster, I'm building a hot street car.

For that, I still need a turbo that can spool before 3000 rpm.

You're right, generally the PS2 is a good option for that.

However, the downside of a PS2 is the back pressure it generates once it starts to get to 500-525-ish whp (due to the stock manifold).

A better flowing manifold would fix that, hence my comment.

Ideally, I'd love to do a real Garrett 3076; although, I'm EWG and can't figure out how to wire a boost controller into the signal path (my other comments), so pulling the trigger on a Speedtech doesn't do me any good right now either.

Regardless, thanks for the conversation - really appreciate the input!
Anytime. I can talk N55 all day 😁.

How much whp are you aiming for?
 
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terryd5150

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I am no expert but I don’t think it’s any different than pwg. You would leave the factory harness plugged into the boost solenoid, but not use it to control boost. The tune is set up the same way for the most part, the boost solenoid will be receiving a signal but in reality it will not impact anything. The boost control would all be done by the ebc and mac solenoid. The dme would control fuel, timing, etc.

Anytime. I can talk N55 all day 😁.

How much whp are you aiming for?

WHP would kinda be a function of the other "must have's" being met.

1. Good spool - I don't wanna lose stop light-to-stop light to some Civic with a fart pipe

2. Safely hold power to red line (not die off like OEM)

3. Healthy logs throughout the powerband (my main concern against getting a PS2)

Those three need to come first. Ideally, topping out at 575-600 would be nice - which I feel like might be in the realm of a 3076, G30/25-770, or potentially even a PS2 with a non-restrictive manifold.

Maybe Pure will have a 3076-based PS3 like VTT's planning on a GC & GC+ (big hint to Pure lol).
 
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houtan

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WHP would kinda be a function of the other "must have's" being met.

1. Good spool - I don't wanna lose stop light-to-stop light to some Civic with a fart pipe

2. Safely hold power to red line (not die off like OEM)

3. Healthy logs throughout the powerband (my main concern against getting a PS2)

Those three need to come first. Ideally, topping out at 575-600 would be nice - which I feel like might be in the realm of a 3076, G30/25-770, or potentially even a PS2 with a non-restrictive manifold.

Maybe Pure will have a 3076-based PS3 like VTT's planning on a GC & GC+ (big hint to Pure lol).
1. Your number one bullet point is why I always try to clarify why someone is asking me about spool. Especially when Dyno graphs are linked directly to on road performance. As I have mentioned earlier, this turbo has slower spool than a ps2 in certain scenarios. The misconception is when it’s assumed the turbo is a slower performer everywhere and is the same as a Dyno graph for example. I will crush a ps2 from a stoplight. The limitation really is traction. But the spool is no slower from a standstill.

2. Anything like a ps2 or larger holds power to redline so you should be good there.

3. This is the first I have heard of the factory manifold causing issues with clean logs. Where did you get this misinformation? My two friends and myself when I had the PS2 have perfect logs with the PS2 at full tilt. The latest person to Dyno made 518 I believe to the wheels at 25 psi, 11.5 degrees timing, log is perfect.

I can tell you, You are going to be really happy if you get to those power goals 😁. Car is very fast with that much power.

Not sure what variations pure is planning on. It appears the current turbo on my car outperforms whatever they have released right now and there is a lot of power left on the table which I may experiment with at some point. I don’t think anything pure releases will have anything to do with what VTT does but that’s just my opinion of course.
 

terryd5150

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1. Your number one bullet point is why I always try to clarify why someone is asking me about spool. Especially when Dyno graphs are linked directly to on road performance. As I have mentioned earlier, this turbo has slower spool than a ps2 in certain scenarios. The misconception is when it’s assumed the turbo is a slower performer everywhere and is the same as a Dyno graph for example. I will crush a ps2 from a stoplight. The limitation really is traction. But the spool is no slower from a standstill.

2. Anything like a ps2 or larger holds power to redline so you should be good there.

3. This is the first I have heard of the factory manifold causing issues with clean logs. Where did you get this misinformation? My two friends and myself when I had the PS2 have perfect logs with the PS2 at full tilt. The latest person to Dyno made 518 I believe to the wheels at 25 psi, 11.5 degrees timing, log is perfect.

I can tell you, You are going to be really happy if you get to those power goals 😁. Car is very fast with that much power.

Not sure what variations pure is planning on. It appears the current turbo on my car outperforms whatever they have released right now and there is a lot of power left on the table which I may experiment with at some point. I don’t think anything pure releases will have anything to do with what VTT does but that’s just my opinion of course.

3. In the EWG world, its a common occurence for a PS2 to choke out up top when you're trying to max it out.

F-series PI cars figured that out early on.

With the smaller downpipe (3.5") PWG hits WGDC limits before it ever gets to that level; however, with the 4" EWG, you'll hit horribly high cylinder pressures before you hit WG limits.

On the F-series, that's the main attraction of a Big Boost or Speedtech kit.

Also, another interesting difference in the generations: no misfires above 500whp when running a dmfw.
 
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terryd5150

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1. Your number one bullet point is why I always try to clarify why someone is asking me about spool. Especially when Dyno graphs are linked directly to on road performance. As I have mentioned earlier, this turbo has slower spool than a ps2 in certain scenarios. The misconception is when it’s assumed the turbo is a slower performer everywhere and is the same as a Dyno graph for example. I will crush a ps2 from a stoplight. The limitation really is traction. But the spool is no slower from a standstill.

2. Anything like a ps2 or larger holds power to redline so you should be good there.

3. This is the first I have heard of the factory manifold causing issues with clean logs. Where did you get this misinformation? My two friends and myself when I had the PS2 have perfect logs with the PS2 at full tilt. The latest person to Dyno made 518 I believe to the wheels at 25 psi, 11.5 degrees timing, log is perfect.

I can tell you, You are going to be really happy if you get to those power goals 😁. Car is very fast with that much power.

Not sure what variations pure is planning on. It appears the current turbo on my car outperforms whatever they have released right now and there is a lot of power left on the table which I may experiment with at some point. I don’t think anything pure releases will have anything to do with what VTT does but that’s just my opinion of course.

Also, on the PS2 vs. PS3 and spool - I can only look at the graphs you posted, but here's what I see:

1. At 50 mph the PS2 is making more HP and TQ than the PS3.

2. At 2500-3000rpm the PS3 is only getting to 150hp and 250tq (you don't show a PS2 by rpm - or at least I can't find it).

Those two data points suggest a PS2 would be more "fun" from a dig.

Obviously, the PS3 car is going to smoke it as the pull gets longer - like a half-mile event.

With that kinda lag, I'm worried I won't have enough road left (in a street fight) to chase down Grandma's Honda Accord that got the jump on me while I was waiting to spool up. Lol.
 
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houtan

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3. In the EWG world, its a common occurence for a PS2 to choke out up top when you're trying to max it out.

With the smaller downpipe (3.5") PWG hits WGDC limits before it ever gets to that level; however, with the 4" EWG, you'll hit horribly high cylinder pressures before you hit WG limits.

On the F-series, that's the main attraction of a Big Boost or Speedtech kit.

Also, another interesting difference in the generations: no misfires above 500whp when running a dmfw.
Interesting. How much whp does the PS2 get in the f series cars?

Four or five years ago, I remember the f series cars were making more than the e series and we believed it was due to the larger downpipe on the f series. Then we realized the pwg was getting pushed open at higher wgdc which does not happen with the ewg and that was the biggest contributor to less power than the f series. That’s why pure released the HD wg actuator for the e series cars and we started seeing r series cars making 520 whp. I remember when I installed the hd wg actuator I was hitting more boost at the same wgdc.

Oh wow. So there are DCT cars running 500+ whp with the factory dmfw? I would love to read about that, could you please share some links when you get a chance? That was an issue I lived with literally for years!
 

houtan

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Nov 2, 2017
465
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135i N55 DCT; PS2
Also, on the PS2 vs. PS3 and spool - I can only look at the graphs you posted, but here's what I see:

1. At 50 mph the PS2 is making more HP and TQ than the PS3.

2. At 2500-3000rpm the PS3 is only getting to 150hp and 250tq (you don't show a PS2 by rpm - or at least I can't find it).

Those two data points suggest a PS2 would be more "fun" from a dig.

Obviously, the PS3 car is going to smoke it as the pull gets longer - like a half-mile event.

With that kinda lag, I'm worried I won't have enough road left (in a street fight) to chase down Grandma's Honda Accord that got the jump on me while I was waiting to spool up. Lol.
Yeah I agree with your comparison, but that doesn’t transfer to real world performance. Again it’s important to remember that the Dyno graph is just a tool, what you see there doesn’t translate 1:1 to what you see on the road. If it did, my 100-200k time would be slower than a ps2.

You are seeing a pull from 5th gear at 2,500rpm in the Dyno run and you are pulling numbers at that rpm in 5th gear. I would love to race someone that thinks starting in 5th gear at 2,500rpm is a good idea, no matter what turbo they are running.

I am not sure how much more clear I can be but I will mention it again, the acceleration from a stand still in the correct gear is no slower than stock or a PS2. There is no disadvantage from a standstill other than the traction is worse.
 
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wheela

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3. In the EWG world, its a common occurence for a PS2 to choke out up top when you're trying to max it out.

F-series PI cars figured that out early on.

With the smaller downpipe (3.5") PWG hits WGDC limits before it ever gets to that level; however, with the 4" EWG, you'll hit horribly high cylinder pressures before you hit WG limits.

On the F-series, that's the main attraction of a Big Boost or Speedtech kit.

Also, another interesting difference in the generations: no misfires above 500whp when running a dmfw.
I don't think the PS2 is on the power range where a 3.5 vs. 4 inch down pipe make a difference. Auto-wastegating is an issue with PWG, but primarily the performance difference is due to EWG having a bigger compressor wheel. I've read that the PWG turbo compressor has a 46mm inducer and 62mm exducer vs. an EWG turbo has a compressor with 50mm inducer and 67mm exducer. This is why stock for stock EWG crushes PWG.
 
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terryd5150

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Interesting. How much whp does the PS2 get in the f series cars?

Four or five years ago, I remember the f series cars were making more than the e series and we believed it was due to the larger downpipe on the f series. Then we realized the pwg was getting pushed open at higher wgdc which does not happen with the ewg and that was the biggest contributor to less power than the f series. That’s why pure released the HD wg actuator for the e series cars and we started seeing r series cars making 520 whp. I remember when I installed the hd wg actuator I was hitting more boost at the same wgdc.

Oh wow. So there are DCT cars running 500+ whp with the factory dmfw? I would love to read about that, could you please share some links when you get a chance? That was an issue I lived with literally for years!

F-series gets a little complex on PS2. Some early N55 F30's had PWG and switched somewhere in 2014 (I think) to EWG.

All F32 N55's have EWG (that's what I have).

On the stock HPFP, MHD's OTS EWG PS2 tune is rated by MHD as "up to" 475whp - stock fueling system being the limiting factor.

With a stage 2 HPFP, >500whp is the norm. How FAR past 500 is usually dependent on the supporting mods and "level of aggression" in the tune.
 
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terryd5150

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I don't think the PS2 is on the power range where a 3.5 vs. 4 inch down pipe make a difference. Auto-wastegating is an issue with PWG, but primarily the performance difference is due to EWG having a bigger compressor wheel. I've read that the PWG turbo compressor has a 46mm inducer and 62mm exducer vs. an EWG turbo has a compressor with 50mm inducer and 67mm exducer. This is why stock for stock EWG crushes PWG.
Yes, that's true for the stock turbo; however, we're not discussing the stock units here.

Consider that a PS1 EWG vs. PS1 PWG also results in the EWG coming out on top.

Same for PS2.

PWG can't get the air out of the turbine housing as fast as an EWG can.

You WILL see that phenomenon as you start to crank both up to their limits.
 
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terryd5150

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Yeah I agree with your comparison, but that doesn’t transfer to real world performance. Again it’s important to remember that the Dyno graph is just a tool, what you see there doesn’t translate 1:1 to what you see on the road. If it did, my 100-200k time would be slower than a ps2.

You are seeing a pull from 5th gear at 2,500rpm in the Dyno run and you are pulling numbers at that rpm in 5th gear. I would love to race someone that thinks starting in 5th gear at 2,500rpm is a good idea, no matter what turbo they are running.

I am not sure how much more clear I can be but I will mention it again, the acceleration from a stand still in the correct gear is no slower than stock or a PS2. There is no disadvantage from a standstill other than the traction is worse.

I know you've been around the block for quite awhile, so I trust your word.

It's just the data making me nervous, but if you're saying otherwise, I gotta think there's something there to consider.
 
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wheela

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Yes, that's true for the stock turbo; however, we're not discussing the stock units here.

Consider that a PS1 EWG vs. PS1 PWG also results in the EWG coming out on top.

Same for PS2.

PWG can't get the air out of the turbine housing as fast as an EWG can.

You WILL see that phenomenon as you start to crank both up to their limits.
PWG and EWG have the same size turbine wheels. EWG has a bigger compressor, and can flow more air into the engine. But I beleive the reason the PWG can't flow that exhaust out at those high levels of flow is that it takes more turbine power to drive the smaller compressor wheel to the flows attained with the EWG. The PWG turbo needs to spin faster, and requires a bigger pressure differential across the turbine to try to keep up with the larger compressor of the EWG turbo. So not only is the smaller PWG compressor out of breath, the turbine is also working harder as a result. I bet you'd see the same thing if they both had either 3.5" or 4" downpipes.

As far as PS1 EWG vs. PWG, the PWG is probably auto-wategating (exhaust pressure pushing it open) from the ridiculous pre-turbine back pressure.
 
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terryd5150

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Interesting. How much whp does the PS2 get in the f series cars?

Four or five years ago, I remember the f series cars were making more than the e series and we believed it was due to the larger downpipe on the f series. Then we realized the pwg was getting pushed open at higher wgdc which does not happen with the ewg and that was the biggest contributor to less power than the f series. That’s why pure released the HD wg actuator for the e series cars and we started seeing r series cars making 520 whp. I remember when I installed the hd wg actuator I was hitting more boost at the same wgdc.

Oh wow. So there are DCT cars running 500+ whp with the factory dmfw? I would love to read about that, could you please share some links when you get a chance? That was an issue I lived with literally for years!

My DMFW comment was related to MT cars not DCT - sorry, I can't help you there.

I have never laid eyes on a DCT F30 or F32 - I'm not sure such a thing even existed from the factory.

If it did, it's so rare that it doesn't get discussed on F-series forums with any meaningful regularity.

The only one that I know of was a conversion and I'm not certain what turbo they run.
 

terryd5150

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PWG and EWG have the same size turbine wheels. EWG has a bigger compressor, and can flow more air into the engine. But I beleive the reason the PWG can't flow that exhaust out at those high levels of flow is that it takes more turbine power to drive the smaller compressor wheel to the flows attained with the EWG. The PWG turbo needs to spin faster, and requires a bigger pressure differential across the turbine to try to keep up with the larger compressor of the EWG turbo. So not only is the smaller PWG compressor out of breath, the turbine is also working harder as a result. I bet you'd see the same thing if they both had either 3.5" or 4" downpipes.

As far as PS1 EWG vs. PWG, the PWG is probably auto-wategating (exhaust pressure pushing it open) from the ridiculous pre-turbine back pressure.

Again, yes, true for stock.

However, if I'm not mistaken, regardless of PWG/EWG, a Pure Stage 1 or 2 has the exact same compressor and turbine wheel sizes.

That levels the playing field between the two in the wheel size category.

Here's Chris from VTT trying to say this is the very reason they didn't get the numbers they wanted on the new PWG GC turbo (see post 31 in this thread):


I promise I don't make this sh!t up. Lol.
 

terryd5150

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PWG and EWG have the same size turbine wheels. EWG has a bigger compressor, and can flow more air into the engine. But I beleive the reason the PWG can't flow that exhaust out at those high levels of flow is that it takes more turbine power to drive the smaller compressor wheel to the flows attained with the EWG. The PWG turbo needs to spin faster, and requires a bigger pressure differential across the turbine to try to keep up with the larger compressor of the EWG turbo. So not only is the smaller PWG compressor out of breath, the turbine is also working harder as a result. I bet you'd see the same thing if they both had either 3.5" or 4" downpipes.

As far as PS1 EWG vs. PWG, the PWG is probably auto-wategating (exhaust pressure pushing it open) from the ridiculous pre-turbine back pressure.

Lemme see if I can explain this a little better as to how this is true:

1. Common sense would suggest that 4>3.5, so it should be easy to grasp that the 4 will flow more than 3.5.

However, it's easy to think "well, that's only a half-inch, it can't be that big of a difference".

In reality, that 0.5" makes a HUGE difference.

Let's examine how!


2. Physics 'n math 'n sh!t:

Surface area of a 3.5" circle = 9.621 inches^2

Surface area of a 4" circle = 12.566 inches^2

That's a difference of 2.95 inches^2

That means that half-inch increase was worth an increase in surface area (and air flow) of 30.6%.

That's a GIGANTIC increase in airflow.

This is ALSO the same reason that porting a head - even though the size difference may be minimal before/after - can result in significant power increases (it now moves much more air).


3. Outside of ^^this nerdy sh!t^^, I provided a link to a turbo manufacturer saying this is true.
 
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wheela

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Lemme see if I can explain this a little better as to how this is true:

1. Common sense would suggest that 4>3.5, so it should be easy to grasp that the 4 will flow more than 3.5.

However, it's easy to think "well, that's only a half-inch, it can't be that big of a difference".

In reality, that 0.5" makes a HUGE difference.

Let's examine how!


2. Physics 'n math 'n sh!t:

Surface area of a 3.5" circle = 9.621 inches^2

Surface area of a 4" circle = 12.566 inches^2

That's a difference of 2.95 inches^2

That means that half-inch increase was worth an increase in surface area (and air flow) of 30.6%.

That's a GIGANTIC increase in airflow.

This is ALSO the same reason that porting a head - even though the size difference may be minimal before/after - can result in significant power increases (it now moves much more air).


3. Outside of ^^this nerdy sh!t^^, I provided a link to a turbo manufacturer saying this is true.
I think you're wise to view vtt claims with a healthy dose of skepticism. Also, it doesn't make sense that if they're releasing a new turbo, why would they show dyno graphs from a car that didn't have sufficient fueling to support the turbo? I agree with your suspicions on that one.

For the downpipes, I agree that a 4" can flow a lot more than 3.5". I'm just saying that at ps2 power ranges I don't think the exhaust flow is high enough that a 3.5" DP is causing any limitations. So going to 4" doesn't net you any practical gains (you're already throwing a hotdog down a hallway). I think even a BW EFR 7670 (64 lb/min turbo) comes with a 3.5" v-band turbine outlet.
 
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wheela

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Again, yes, true for stock.

However, if I'm not mistaken, regardless of PWG/EWG, a Pure Stage 1 or 2 has the exact same compressor and turbine wheel sizes.

That levels the playing field between the two in the wheel size category.

Here's Chris from VTT trying to say this is the very reason they didn't get the numbers they wanted on the new PWG GC turbo (see post 31 in this thread):


I promise I don't make this sh!t up. Lol.
Back to the EWG PS2 making more power than the PWG PS2, despite having the same compressor/turbine wheels - here's some really interesting testing hardparker did with wastegate actuators on his PS2. He was maxing it out and was trying to get even more from it. By switching to pressure driven standard wastegate actuators, he was able to get more top end out of his PS2 with no other mechanical changes. Since all that changed was the wastegate actuator, its safe to assume that the stock vacuum actuator was not able to hold the wastegate flap shut against the pre-turbine exhaust pressure as well as the pressure driven wastegate could.

Obviously this testing has nothing to do with DP diameter, but it supports that the vacuum actuator on the PWG has limitations with high boost/high back pressure situations where it auto-wastegates, and also shows that gains can be had with a different actuator that can hold the WG flap shut against the higher pressure.

EWG directly controls wg position, and even has wg position feedback to the dme, so when the dme commands the flap shut, the flap is shut (no auto-wastegating). PWG on the other hand is open loop (no position feedback). All it has it wastegate duty cycle. Actual wastegate position varies based on duty cycle AND exhaust flow. So there is a point where exhaust flow (and therefore pre-turbine back pressure) is so high that the wastegate not be fully closed, even with 100% duty cycle. I think hardparker's work illustrated that happens with PWG PS2 pretty well.

 

Torgus

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1st this is VTT. Everything they say is slightly fucked one way or the other, just like their products.

2nd a 3.5'' DP flows just fine. People have made well over 800whp on a 3'' DP, let alone 3.5 or 4'' on many platforms.

3rd that green dyno VTT posted is a joke. Smaller wheels will spool faster but make less top end power. How do larger wheels spool faster and make 50 more whp and 100 more wtq? It is against the laws of physics unless of course the smaller turbine wheels were a horrible design or the housings were fucked. This day and age people know what design turbine wheels to use. Like most things they post, it just does not add up. I like that VTT now throws ZAGE Turbo under the bus constantly when just a few years ago ZAGE was there go to manufacture of ChinaCast turbos and could do no wrong. They must not like the competition.

Just go with a a Big Boost or Speedtech kit and be done with it.
 
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houtan

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@terryd5150, I agree with your downpipe diameter calculations, but as @wheela and @Torgus have said, the 3.5” diameter is not a bottle neck so the 4” diameter doesn’t add much gains.

@Torgus, I would add PS3 as an option as well, when it becomes available of course :).

There is a lot of information missing in that other thread. My goal was to be transparent and provide as much information as possible so prospective buyers know what they are getting.
 

houtan

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Minor update. Been working on my tune and noticed with slightly richer AFR, around 12.0ish vice 12.3ish, the car felt faster. My dragy times are faster as well.

Of course every flat road I find in Mexico to squeeze a run in manages to be not flat enough. So I give up until I get to a half mile event. But here a couple of my runs. Whether was kind of warm, around 78ish. Not going to add it to the op since it’s invalid but that’s what I’ve been up to!
 

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