PORT INJ who what when and why

Bmwfixerguy1

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I'm hoping to create a thread that many like me in the position I'm in can refer back to as there one stop shop for answers..

So in the quest for power.. bigger turbos are on the way and my charge pipe meth and E40ish ain't gonna cut it... I need fuel lots of it and quick lol! I'm faced with the daunting task of trying to decide what to believe and who to believe lol.. Not that literally btw..

The goal- I will be on vtt 2+'S 20T wheel and clipped 15° these puppies will need some of that drank! Stock bottom end with good compression and leak down. I want to see 600whp out if them but the number isn't obsessive, I'd trade a lot for a good curve

So for someone like myself that currently drives about 45 min to fill two 55 gal drums with e90 (I test it at work in are decomposition tester everytime) going full E85 won't be an option I'm gonna have to blend up to an e50 max. Meth I have an unlimited supply of from work..

So to the question..

1. When is port injection needed

2. More importantly than when needed, we all kinda get that.. At what mixes is it needed..

3. What lpfp(s) is needed at what power and blend.. Its safe to use e50 as the blend in all my examples

4. I've seen more new vendors on this site in a day than I have on other forums in a year! Is port injection just port Injection or does one company have an inherent advantage over the other

5. The why.. Once again I know why but is it truly that much better than port meth.. Its easy to say yes it is because fuel-it has been saying it is for years and that's all we read but really is it? I kinda know the answer to this but I'm more evoking experiences from you guys :)

So once again.. I've gathered a lot of info on my own but havnt found any laws or rules.. And hell I'm clueless right now and I wanna learn!
 

Bmwfixerguy1

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So where I write talk walk ect I can be quite a scatter brain... And babble lol..

My most important question I suppose is and what I'd really like to know is at what mix and horsepower level does port injection become needed

Example: is port injection not needed to say hit 600 with e50, as it's totally needed with full E85..
 

langsbr

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Apr 5, 2017
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I think there is a range of power where PI is needed. Considering differences in fuel pumps, engines, and dyno numbers, I've seen just over 600 rwhp with only a Stage 2 LPFP and no PI, and others that needed one over 520 RWHP. Both at the same E50ish fuel. I think the general consensus is if you're targeting much over 550 rwhp, you may need to go PI to be safe. I'm in the same boat as you - I'm going to see what I can get with just the stage 2 LPFP on my MMPs, and if I am content, I'll stay there. If not, it's a debate - do I drop at least a grand for another 75 - 100 rwhp at most, or go with the single barrel shotgun from VTT? I'm leaning towards the Single Barrel, even though not many people run it. I think most jump to PI as they are going for 700+, but I prefer DME control if possible. Granted with a double barrel, thats no longer an option.
 
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Bmwfixerguy1

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I think there is a range of power where PI is needed. Considering differences in fuel pumps, engines, and dyno numbers, I've seen just over 600 rwhp with only a Stage 2 LPFP and no PI, and others that needed one over 520 RWHP. Both at the same E50ish fuel. I think the general consensus is if you're targeting much over 550 rwhp, you may need to go PI to be safe. I'm in the same boat as you - I'm going to see what I can get with just the stage 2 LPFP on my MMPs, and if I am content, I'll stay there. If not, it's a debate - do I drop at least a grand for another 75 - 100 rwhp at most, or go with the single barrel shotgun from VTT? I'm leaning towards the Single Barrel, even though not many people run it. I think most jump to PI as they are going for 700+, but I prefer DME control if possible. Granted with a double barrel, thats no longer an option.

It's funny you say that beachside been looking more and more into the vtt single barrel.. The s55 in the f8x card uses essentially 2 n55 pumps.. It could easily be adapted an n54 I'd think
 

doublespaces

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4. I've seen more new vendors on this site in a day than I have on other forums in a year! Is port injection just port Injection or does one company have an inherent advantage over the other
I recruit vendors heavily because they bring the developments. Also it is free to promote here so naturally they will be happy to show what they've got.

5. The why.. Once again I know why but is it truly that much better than port meth.. Its easy to say yes it is because fuel-it has been saying it is for years and that's all we read but really is it? I kinda know the answer to this but I'm more evoking experiences from you guys :)

Are you asking is ethanol better than meth? Personally I believe it is but that depends on a few things. With meth you can run gas, which has a higher energy content per volume. You can hit higher power figures before you have to go port injection.

While meth has its own safety issues, port injection with ethanol is not quite there yet with the blown motors we've seen, supposedly due to lean conditions where the DI cuts fuel in a cylinder but the PI keeps spraying. This is debated and I have no personal evidence of this but I've been hearing it.

There is news on this front but it is privileged information and you'll just have to wait. I had an hsf4 with howerton tank and had to sell it because there is simply no space in my e93. My intake manifold has six 1/8 npt bungs and six fuel ports so I'm prepared to go either/both ways in the future.
 

Bmwfixerguy1

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I recruit vendors heavily because they bring the developments. Also it is free to promote here so naturally they will be happy to show what they've got.

To that part.. Just wanna make sure you didn't think I was "bashing" that.. I meant that in the most awesome of awesomeness ways!!! I'm so happy to see other actions!

Are you asking is ethanol better than meth? Personally I believe it is but that depends on a few things. With meth you can run gas, which has a higher energy content per volume. You can hit higher power figures before you have to go port injection.

While meth has its own safety issues, port injection with ethanol is not quite there yet with the blown motors we've seen, supposedly due to lean conditions where the DI cuts fuel in a cylinder but the PI keeps spraying. This is debated and I have no personal evidence of this but I've been hearing it.

There is news on this front but it is privileged information and you'll just have to wait. I had an hsf4 with howerton tank and had to sell it because there is simply no space in my e93. My intake manifold has six 1/8 npt bungs and six fuel ports so I'm prepared to go either/both ways in the future.

And yes.. I'd a have to agree as well that if money is no object an elaborate port injection has to trump meth injection.

I really want to get a better handle on PI for those that can only run blends.. With the no secret of ethanol getting out of the bag the past couple years I can promise everyone who didn't have access has Googled the closet pump lol.. Then calculated all kinds of things like what kinda blend they could run based off how. Much they could hoard in one trip lol..

So the real question is PI when is it needed with what blends and power goals? I know that's a very vague question and more why I'm looking for experiences :)
 
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Bmwfixerguy1

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Power you can make without PI/Meth

On 93/race gas Upper 500s-low 600s
e40-e60 Around 500whp
e85 around 440-450whp

So let me see if this is answerable..

I'll plug in some info and see if there is an answer

FBO inlets and outlets
FUEL-e50
TURBOS-VTT 2+ 20t 15°clip
LPFP- single Walbro 450
METH- single d05 (100% meth IC outlet)

GOAL-600WHP (the number dosnt mean as much to me the overall curve is what matters most)

With the figures given is it answerable that I will or will not need PI? If it's a well Maybe you would me pushing/maxing it all out than thats a yes lol

See my variable is e50.. Just don't see much using that with these type builds it seems.. Either all or none for the most part..
 

Bmwfixerguy1

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So let me see if this is answerable..

I'll plug in some info and see if there is an answer

FBO inlets and outlets
FUEL-e50
TURBOS-VTT 2+ 20t 15°clip
LPFP- single Walbro 450
METH- single d05 (100% meth IC outlet)

GOAL-600WHP (the number dosnt mean as much to me the overall curve is what matters most)

With the figures given is it answerable that I will or will not need PI? If it's a well Maybe you would me pushing/maxing it all out than thats a yes lol

See my variable is e50.. Just don't see much using that with these type builds it seems.. Either all or none for the most part..


Actually I take back one of those "plug ins"

METH- 50/50 at IC outlet

The entire point if the possibility of PI is I've dodged a bullet long enough using meth as fuel.. Every pull involves me saying a prayer that nothing meth related fails :(
 

doublespaces

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Actually I take back one of those "plug ins"

METH- 50/50 at IC outlet

The entire point if the possibility of PI is I've dodged a bullet long enough using meth as fuel.. Every pull involves me saying a prayer that nothing meth related fails :(

Do you ever feel guilty going WOT?
 
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Bmwfixerguy1

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Do you ever feel guilty going WOT?
Maybe it's the technician in me.. But I no joke picture bad things in my head during every pull.. I pull over and review every log as well before making another pull lol.. I've become trapped inside my own meth tank and I want out!! Lmao
 
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doublespaces

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Maybe it's the technician in me.. But I no joke picture bad things in my head during every pull.. I pull over and review every log as well before making another pull lol.. I've become trapped inside my own meth tank and I want out!! Lmao

Its kind of one of those situations when your engine lets go it won't even be shocking, but rather, "Ah, shit..."
 

Bmwfixerguy1

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Its kind of one of those situations when your engine lets go it won't even be shocking, but rather, "Ah, shit..."
Yea I'm not sure I'll have that attitude lol.. I think I started to be more vigilant about a years ago when a fellow co-worker and n54 modifier blew a head has kept and cracked a cylinder liner..
His case was very rare and.. He totaled his first 335 and rushed to by a similar one and bought from a used car lot.. Well after we pulled the head to to do the head gasket you could see that some shop looked like they used a belt sander on it.. They probably did the head gasket to fix a leaking OFHG.. Anyways they head was torqued all funny was deff warped bad and I think that induced the cyl liner cracking.. It was human induced for sure. So ever since then I'm more vigilant lol.
Hes a good friend it was so upsetting to see him that sad.. That's when I kinda made him a proposal of that I have tons of side work.. I cut him in all all if it till he could cover the whole rebuild like nothing happened!
 
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Abacus38

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With your setup I wouldn't run e50 maybe e30 to take some pressure off your hpfp since you are running 100% meth. You should be good with that setup for 600whp easy.
 

matreyia

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Apr 19, 2017
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I want to know what gains to expect using pump gas with stage 3 lpfp (2 pumps) along with port injection on stock turbos with tuning.
Vs.
The same setup with mmp turbo upgrades.

I never plan to use ethanol or meth.
 

Bmwfixerguy1

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With your setup I wouldn't run e50 maybe e30 to take some pressure off your hpfp since you are running 100% meth. You should be good with that setup for 600whp easy.

Sorry, I kinda added on the back end of that.. The whole point of this is trying to get rid of fuel with meth.... Read a couple posts after lol.. I came back on what I said real quick lol
 

08_335i

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Nov 3, 2016
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on my ST 5862 setup, with just an upgraded LPFP on an E35-E40 blend I started running out of fuel at the 3500-5500 range on 29-30psi.
 

Bmwfixerguy1

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on my ST 5862 setup, with just an upgraded LPFP on an E35-E40 blend I started running out of fuel at the 3500-5500 range on 29-30psi.
Are you still currently tuning? Where did you end up at with power (if dynoed)