Help me reach 600whp on upgraded twins without E85.

twinturbos

Sergeant
Jan 1, 2019
257
61
0
Ride
E92 335i MT
Hi,

I know I posted about a month or so ago about going single. I was sure that was what I wanted to do until Pure decided they would say f*ck you to everyone else and released their turbos with a cast manifold much cheaper... So cheap in fact that it`s sitting at around exactly half the price of what a Docrace 6266 BB kit would have cost me.

Back story: I have been running my 07 335i with JB4 G4 for the past 5 years. Intake, charge pipe, catless downpipes, removed secondary cats, vrsf 7" FMIC.
I have sold the charge pipe+bov and I have the VRSF charge pipe for relocated inlets/335D expansion tank on the way. I just picked up a new Tial BOV today. It came with the 10PSI spring I hope it will be fine otherwise I'll just order the 11PSI one.

I have sold the JB4 G4 as it was way outdated anyways.
Today I ordered:
Pure 700whp (new version)
VRSF relocation inlets
VRSF outlets
fuelit stage2 LPFP

Next step I'm thinking would be the BMS intake with port injection.
I will also need a new clutch. My mechanic and also friend is telling me 335is clutch should be enough. What is your opinion ? I'm trying to save a bit of money where I can considering I'm dumping around 10k in this car.

Car has 98,000 miles.

Also next things that I'm thinking I will need:
Crank bolt lock from vtt,
Crank seal protection plate
JB4 G5 ISO

What else do I need or do you suggest to get close to my power goals and/or what kind of power do you think I'll be able to make ?
Somewhere along the way I believe I will also need a TMAP sensor and possibly precision raceworks coilpacks.

I have no access to E85 at all.
Do you think I can make it to 600whp or will I absolutely need meth injection also ?
 

mt_n54

Lurker
Dec 21, 2016
23
6
0
You will definitely need meth to make 600 whp..
without it you’ll probably see about 500 whp..
 

twinturbos

Sergeant
Jan 1, 2019
257
61
0
Ride
E92 335i MT
So port injection won't be enough ? Can I do port meth instead ? Or do I really need both ?
 

mt_n54

Lurker
Dec 21, 2016
23
6
0
Do you have access to race fuel? I think with pump race fuel (100+ octane) you should be able to reach 600 whp (no meth or PI necessary)..
Or you can run Meth Port Injection like you mentioned..
 

twinturbos

Sergeant
Jan 1, 2019
257
61
0
Ride
E92 335i MT
Do you have access to race fuel? I think with pump race fuel (100+ octane) you should be able to reach 600 whp (no meth or PI necessary)..
Or you can run Meth Port Injection like you mentioned..
I have access to VP Fuels but I would only run that couple times per summer for half mile events. Otherwise I have 94 octane at the pump.
 

Torgus

Major
Nov 6, 2016
1,769
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Boston
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ACF 6466 E92 + METH
1) 335is clutch is not enough. Spec 3+ or Twin disk required and SMFW.

2) You will need 100whp of meth. 100% methanol, 20-25% methanol/fuel ratio or 1.5-2cc per BHP. 600whp would be say ~700 BHP so aquamist says you should be running 1050cc - 1400cc of meth. That is a lot to spray into your CP. Probably want to think about DP meth with a 7th nozzle in the CP for IAT cooling(though not required).

3) 7'' vrsf non HD is not going to be enough, get the vrsf race 7.5'' monster.

4) It is going to be easier to get there on a single turbo. Those twins are going to be running at their max pumping out ALOT of hot air. Hence needing the monster IC. The twins are going to be working a lot harder than a single would at the same PSI. Something to consider for longevity and also future power goals for you or the next owner. Do you want your turbo(s) maxed out or to have headroom? ACF is usually a bit cheaper than DocRace fwiw with shorter runners better wastegates etc.

5) Yes you will need an upgraded TMAP.

6) Upgraded coilpacks can't hurt but are not required. Might upgrade depending on how old yours are, same with plugs and other maintenance parts. I would do your waterpump while you are in there if it is OEM.


After all of this you are then going to have to be able to put the power down. but i guess worry about that after all of the above cost and labor.
 

twinturbos

Sergeant
Jan 1, 2019
257
61
0
Ride
E92 335i MT
1) 335is clutch is not enough. Spec 3+ or Twin disk required and SMFW.

2) You will need 100whp of meth. 100% methanol, 20-25% methanol/fuel ratio or 1.5-2cc per BHP. 600whp would be say ~700 BHP so aquamist says you should be running 1050cc - 1400cc of meth. That is a lot to spray into your CP. Probably want to think about DP meth with a 7th nozzle in the CP for IAT cooling(though not required).

3) 7'' vrsf non HD is not going to be enough, get the vrsf race 7.5'' monster.

4) It is going to be easier to get there on a single turbo. Those twins are going to be running at their max pumping out ALOT of hot air. Hence needing the monster IC. The twins are going to be working a lot harder than a single would at the same PSI. Something to consider for longevity and also future power goals for you or the next owner. Do you want your turbo(s) maxed out or to have headroom? ACF is usually a bit cheaper than DocRace fwiw with shorter runners better wastegates etc.

5) Yes you will need an upgraded TMAP.

6) Upgraded coilpacks can't hurt but are not required. Might upgrade depending on how old yours are, same with plugs and other maintenance parts. I would do your waterpump while you are in there if it is OEM.


After all of this you are then going to have to be able to put the power down. but i guess worry about that after all of the above cost and labor.

I already ordered the twins. There was so much arguing around whether or not the big single is the best thing for my power goals that I wasn't sure anymore and with the new version so much cheaper I decided to go with it.

I don't mind lowering the power goals to be honest, I'm thinking 500whp on 94 octane should be pretty good for every other night. 600whp on race gas such as VP MS109 do-able ?

For the TMAP, what am I looking for ? N20 TMAP ?

My coilpacks have like 150 miles on them its the delphi ones. Water pump and thermostat are brand new right now, I just changed them.

Pure shows off 497whp on pump gas... I'm guessing I could get there. Do I still need port injection? Should I just do port meth instead of port injection ?

Do I really need a stage 3 clutch ?

JB4 G5 ISO should be able to run this with a backend flash I guess ? Are tunes for this setup available for initial start up and testing or will I have to get the car tuned right away ?

Will I be able to simply switch maps on the JB4 to run race gas ?

Did anyone ever wrap the outlets to keep the heat away from the engine bay/intakes ?
 

Torgus

Major
Nov 6, 2016
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ACF 6466 E92 + METH
My vote would be just install the turbos and TMAP. Then get a custom tune. If the clutch holds great. and see what you put down.

Tmap from burger is cheap enough: http://www.burgertuning.com/JB4_upgrades.html

If 500whp at redline is not enough then install the meth kit and see what you can put down. For 500whp you will not need PI. You might want to get a stage 1 fuel pump which you can DIY. It is just a single walbro. You honestly might be fine without it but it is small money when you DIY.

Yes people wrap outlets but if they are too close or touching they will melt regardless. Your delphi coilpacks should be just fine.
 
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twinturbos

Sergeant
Jan 1, 2019
257
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E92 335i MT
My vote would be just install the turbos and TMAP. Then get a custom tune. If the clutch holds great. and see what you put down.

Tmap from burger is cheap enough: http://www.burgertuning.com/JB4_upgrades.html

If 500whp at redline is not enough then install the meth kit and see what you can put down. For 500whp you will not need PI. You might want to get a stage 1 fuel pump which you can DIY. It is just a single walbro. You honestly might be fine without it but it is small money when you DIY.

Yes people wrap outlets but if they are too close or touching they will melt regardless. Your delphi coilpacks should be just fine.

Thanks for the info. I ordered a fuel it stage 2 bucketless lpfp at the same time at the turbos so that should be good to go. I wanted to diy a walbro 450 but just got lazy and the car also has a full tank now and didnt want to deal with it as it is stored for now.

So.. install turbos with inlets and outlets and a tmap, lpfp and see what happens? Jb4+back end I'm guessing?
 

Tuppidsay

Corporal
Aug 3, 2017
105
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Seattle, WA
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2008 535i
You will need octane! Unless you wanna go with a whole lot of boost and no timing. even then, it may not be enough with the twins you bought. I dyno'd 638 vtt gc 27psi and 9degrees of timing with pi meth kit.
 

langsbr

Captain
Apr 5, 2017
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07 335i 6MT e90
You will need octane! Unless you wanna go with a whole lot of boost and no timing. even then, it may not be enough with the twins you bought. I dyno'd 638 vtt gc 27psi and 9degrees of timing with pi meth kit.

Thats good power on 9* with meth.

2) You will need 100whp of meth. 100% methanol, 20-25% methanol/fuel ratio or 1.5-2cc per BHP. 600whp would be say ~700 BHP so aquamist says you should be running 1050cc - 1400cc of meth. That is a lot to spray into your CP. Probably want to think about DP meth with a 7th nozzle in the CP for IAT cooling(though not required).

Why use meth for supplemental fueling? Can't the DI system keep up with pump gas and meth to allow only using meth for octane/cooling?

@twinturbos what's your use case for the car? Fun on the highway, or do you like fast corners and exit ramp tag? If you like corners, I would shy away from the bucketless fuel pump. Of course every vendor that sells them will say there is little risk, because they want to sell them, but there is a risk, especially when fuel is low. You could mitigate that risk with a big ole honking hydramat, but if you're gonna drop that kind of cash, just stick with a bucketed setup. Most guys go for a bucketless because it gives some extra flow over a bucketed, which you'll likely not need quite as much running pump gas only.

I'm interested to see these Pure cast setups run. There has been quite a bit of trash talk from at least one vendor regarding aftermarket castings, but Pure has always had a very good reputation, so it will be interesting to see how these perform and if said vendor breaks down and uses them too.
 
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Torgus

Major
Nov 6, 2016
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Why use meth for supplemental fueling? Can't the DI system keep up with pump gas and meth to allow only using meth for octane/cooling? .

Iirc the stock hpfp run out around 500-550whp on pump depending on it's health. Most people need e85 or meth above 500whp on twins as the twins blow so much hot ass air you need more octane. This as opposed to a larger single which will still be in it's efficiency range and be blowing cooler air aka less knock. This is why a single can produce more hp on pump than most twins depending on how it is sized. Same when you go E85 a correctly sized single turbo will outflow 'stock style' twins.

So he will need to use some meth as fuel. You do not want to be on the ragged edge of what the stock fuel system can provide either way. Like with most things you want headroom, be it your fueling or turbo solution etc. You want more than what you will run daily as a cushion. That meth info I got from aquamist's website. It will vary depending on the car but I think that ratio is accepted as 'normal'.


it's a ratio type thing. The more fuel volume you put in the more meth volume you need to keep the octane high

Exactly.
 

Torgus

Major
Nov 6, 2016
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Race Fuel, Some Meth and a Custom map will get you 600whp. Let me know if you have any meth questions

Do you you any comments on meth recommendations without race fuel on pump 93?

Meth and pump is much more common than meth and race gas. Race gas seems so stupid unless all you run is it...a fill up is insane $$$ and only at the drag strips around me.
 

SlowE93

Lieutenant
Jul 2, 2017
644
225
0
Ride
E93
Hi,

I know I posted about a month or so ago about going single. I was sure that was what I wanted to do until Pure decided they would say f*ck you to everyone else and released their turbos with a cast manifold much cheaper... So cheap in fact that it`s sitting at around exactly half the price of what a Docrace 6266 BB kit would have cost me.

Back story: I have been running my 07 335i with JB4 G4 for the past 5 years. Intake, charge pipe, catless downpipes, removed secondary cats, vrsf 7" FMIC.
I have sold the charge pipe+bov and I have the VRSF charge pipe for relocated inlets/335D expansion tank on the way. I just picked up a new Tial BOV today. It came with the 10PSI spring I hope it will be fine otherwise I'll just order the 11PSI one.

I have sold the JB4 G4 as it was way outdated anyways.
Today I ordered:
Pure 700whp (new version)
VRSF relocation inlets
VRSF outlets
fuelit stage2 LPFP

Next step I'm thinking would be the BMS intake with port injection.
I will also need a new clutch. My mechanic and also friend is telling me 335is clutch should be enough. What is your opinion ? I'm trying to save a bit of money where I can considering I'm dumping around 10k in this car.

Car has 98,000 miles.

Also next things that I'm thinking I will need:
Crank bolt lock from vtt,
Crank seal protection plate
JB4 G5 ISO

What else do I need or do you suggest to get close to my power goals and/or what kind of power do you think I'll be able to make ?
Somewhere along the way I believe I will also need a TMAP sensor and possibly precision raceworks coilpacks.

I have no access to E85 at all.
Do you think I can make it to 600whp or will I absolutely need meth injection also ?
Who makes the crank seal protection plate ? NVM...I found it. Ridiculous price.
 
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mikeseli

Corporal
May 23, 2017
124
65
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2009 BMW 335i
600whp is possible with 94 octane, but not with the stock N54B30 head and its cams.