E85 Lubricity Additives
- Thread starter fmorelli
- Start date
2 out of 6 15000 km injectors failed on e85 but ran perfectly on 93 coincidence, don't think so.
Read carefully dude the oil gets changed out every 1500 miles or every 2500km
Yes I ran 100% e85 for 5000 miles.
Its not the fuel dilution that causes the wear its the water condensation and it doesn't take much water
to turn the oil into froth before its boiled off. A cap full is enough.
please read through the thread so you can catch up what is being talked about.
Read carefully dude the oil gets changed out every 1500 miles or every 2500km
Yes I ran 100% e85 for 5000 miles.
Its not the fuel dilution that causes the wear its the water condensation and it doesn't take much water
to turn the oil into froth before its boiled off. A cap full is enough.
please read through the thread so you can catch up what is being talked about.
If you think that e85 doesn't affect our injectors why don't you talk to Tony and ask him how many he has gone through.
A bucket is open to the atmosphere and generally prone to evaporation. To play off the example, place a 12 gallon bucket of water in one's garage over the winter - I doubt any of it will be there come spring. Am I wrong? So I don't get the proposed experiment.
Your comments in your posts are rather strident, so I'm surprised you suggest this as an experiment. If you'd like to refine it that's helpful. I'm not being pissy about it, but in reality your experiment infers to me that you may not have considered that the oiling system is a somewhat closed environment (not completely, obviously) compared to an open bucket sitting in atmosphere.
That said I think you could certainly make your points without insulting people or making personal comments about them. It not just unnecessary, it's rather uncouth. Your on-point content and perspective, of course, most appreciated!
Filippo
Sorry if I am not following you because you've bounced around to 40 different completely unrelated things in this thread...
OK, so if fuel dilution isn't the issue... then please explain how water condensation forms if fuel dilution isn't present? Please explain how the teaspoon of water would be more damaging than the GALLONS of fuel that would need to be in your oil for that teaspoon to form in the sump? You don't seem to have a very good grasp on this beyond quoting talking points. Those talking points about E85 ALWAYS points out that the level of water contamination being discussed as a drawback of E85 would NEVER happen in reality.
Right, I wasn't trying to be overly technical. I was merely trying to point out that even a LARGE VOLUME of E85 would absorb very little MEASURABLE water content over a VERY LONG period.
No believe me I thought about it... which is why I said "open air." Neither the fuel system or the engine are open to air. So, you're supporting me in saying that water absorption is not likely to ever be a concern IN REALITY.
I told someone to face reality and own up to their mistake of letting failed injectors mess up their car. If they are insulted by that then so be it, but I did not make "personal comments" about anyone. I pointed out the logic that it's the owners fault for letting a misfiring leaky injector go unchecked and NOT E85's. Sorry if it came off rude but you have 4 pages here of people blaming E85 for things based purely on unrelated anecdotal experiences and then quoting things about E85 out of context.
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I would absolutely love to see a thread that links E85 use to injector failure. That makes 10x more sense to me then saying E85 causes bearing failure or piston ring failure
It causes metering issues which cause missfires.
Missfires are not healthy for our weak piston.
E85 and water has a nasty bi product called accetic acid which in small amounts causes bearing deterioration
Missfires are not healthy for our weak piston.
E85 and water has a nasty bi product called accetic acid which in small amounts causes bearing deterioration
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would a e30 blend still be a issue in the winter months?
Reason im asking is im still on Index 09 injectors(they were replaced under warranty at that time)In the winter months car normally sits with anywhere between e20 to e45.Now have found e30 blend to work well so ill be sticking with that for now.Usually once a week ill start car let run for little & stays on tender.
Its funny,I have brand new index 12 injectors with decouplers i bought from dealer at a steal price(their F-Up)But havent put them in yet.
Reason im asking is im still on Index 09 injectors(they were replaced under warranty at that time)In the winter months car normally sits with anywhere between e20 to e45.Now have found e30 blend to work well so ill be sticking with that for now.Usually once a week ill start car let run for little & stays on tender.
Its funny,I have brand new index 12 injectors with decouplers i bought from dealer at a steal price(their F-Up)But havent put them in yet.
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Like i said earlier in the thread some are lucky
It's not an exact science when they fail or start having metering issues but usally north of 600whp and especially on e85
My injectors never leaked but had major metering issues when pushed over 25psi
Your tuner or dyno operator should be able to pick it up if they are any good.
You will see it in the logs
It's not an exact science when they fail or start having metering issues but usally north of 600whp and especially on e85
My injectors never leaked but had major metering issues when pushed over 25psi
Your tuner or dyno operator should be able to pick it up if they are any good.
You will see it in the logs
Doing some E85 wear reading across forums of other cars and such. Came across this paper with testing. Note @martymil and @Bnks334. I've attached the PDF - lots of good info. Below is the abstract for those that want a taste prior to hitting the paper.
Filippo
Abstract
Concerns over depleting fossil fuel reserves, energy security, and climate change have resulted in stringent legislation demanding that automobiles use more renewable fuels. Bioethanol is being given significant attention on a global scale and is being considered as a long-term gasoline replacement that helps reduce exhaust emissions. The piston ring and cylinder wall interface is generally the largest contributor to engine friction and these regions of the engine also suffer the highest levels of fuel dilution into the lubricant from unburned fuel, especially for bioethanol as it has a high heat of vaporization, which enhances the tendency of the fuel to enter the oil sump. As bioethanol is being blended with gasoline at increasingly higher concentrations and the accumulation of fuel in the crankcase is significant, it is crucial to study the effect of various bioethanol blends on the degradation of engine oil's properties and the friction and wear characteristics of engine oil. A fully synthetic oil was homogenously mixed with five formulated fuels such as gasoline blend (E0), gasoline–10% ethanol (E10), gasoline–20% ethanol (E20), gasoline–30% ethanol (E30), and gasoline–85% ethanol (E85). These mixtures were then tested in a four-ball wear tester according to the ASTM D4172 standard test. Under selected operating conditions, the results show that the addition of a gasoline–bioethanol blend decreases the oil viscosity, whereas the acid number increases because bioethanol is more reactive compared to gasoline, which enhances oil degradation and oxidation. Fuel dilution reduces the lubricating efficiency and the wear protection of the engine oil. All fuel-diluted oil samples have higher friction and wear losses, compared to the fresh synthetic oil. E10 has slight effects on the friction and wear behaviors of the engine oil. Thus, it still has a high potential to be widely used as a transportation fuel for existing gasoline engines.
Filippo
Abstract
Concerns over depleting fossil fuel reserves, energy security, and climate change have resulted in stringent legislation demanding that automobiles use more renewable fuels. Bioethanol is being given significant attention on a global scale and is being considered as a long-term gasoline replacement that helps reduce exhaust emissions. The piston ring and cylinder wall interface is generally the largest contributor to engine friction and these regions of the engine also suffer the highest levels of fuel dilution into the lubricant from unburned fuel, especially for bioethanol as it has a high heat of vaporization, which enhances the tendency of the fuel to enter the oil sump. As bioethanol is being blended with gasoline at increasingly higher concentrations and the accumulation of fuel in the crankcase is significant, it is crucial to study the effect of various bioethanol blends on the degradation of engine oil's properties and the friction and wear characteristics of engine oil. A fully synthetic oil was homogenously mixed with five formulated fuels such as gasoline blend (E0), gasoline–10% ethanol (E10), gasoline–20% ethanol (E20), gasoline–30% ethanol (E30), and gasoline–85% ethanol (E85). These mixtures were then tested in a four-ball wear tester according to the ASTM D4172 standard test. Under selected operating conditions, the results show that the addition of a gasoline–bioethanol blend decreases the oil viscosity, whereas the acid number increases because bioethanol is more reactive compared to gasoline, which enhances oil degradation and oxidation. Fuel dilution reduces the lubricating efficiency and the wear protection of the engine oil. All fuel-diluted oil samples have higher friction and wear losses, compared to the fresh synthetic oil. E10 has slight effects on the friction and wear behaviors of the engine oil. Thus, it still has a high potential to be widely used as a transportation fuel for existing gasoline engines.
Finally
Give the man a beer.
E85 is not be all end all, its a terrible fuel for long term use.
When water is introduced into the mix it through fuel contamination, condensation or what ever the case it increases the acidity in the oil even more.
In high humidity climates this is increased even more.
Look at an air con on a humid day and see how much water is being pump out.
Now think of an engine when its cold and how much water it will produce out of the exhaust and how much will make it into the sump through blow by until the engine warms up and boils it off.
This is why ive been experimenting with sump warmers
And when i see people running low temp thermostat on their oil and e85 it just makes me cringe.
Give the man a beer.
E85 is not be all end all, its a terrible fuel for long term use.
When water is introduced into the mix it through fuel contamination, condensation or what ever the case it increases the acidity in the oil even more.
In high humidity climates this is increased even more.
Look at an air con on a humid day and see how much water is being pump out.
Now think of an engine when its cold and how much water it will produce out of the exhaust and how much will make it into the sump through blow by until the engine warms up and boils it off.
This is why ive been experimenting with sump warmers
And when i see people running low temp thermostat on their oil and e85 it just makes me cringe.
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Thanks for posting what I've already said and acknowledged lol... I literally already stated everything the abstract does.
Of course taking raw fuel and diluting oil with it is going to reduce the oils lubricity. And of course, ethanol is more damaging to oil than gasoline. However, you are still ignoring that this hypothetical impact is unfounded in real world use. Have you ever seen someone using e85 post up an oil anaylsis showing more than 2% fuel dilution? I never have. I dont have it handy, but someone just recently posted up a 9k mile oil change oil report... They use an e60 blend. Their report showed no fuel dilution and still a bit of life left via the oils TBN and viscosity rating.
That "white paper" is nothing more than a bunch of college graduate students re-studying something the oil industry already studied decades ago lol... Look at the references... Half the articles "objectives" are pharaphrased from the referenced sae testing articles that date back to the 1980s lol. Much of the data from this white paper is useless when applied to our cars and modern oil...
Taking raw ethanol and mixing it with a synthetic malaysian off-brand oil doesn't tell you how pump blended ethanol (contains lubricants and stabalizers) reacts with a modern gf-5 oil (an oil tested to meet sae standards to combat side affects of e85 use). The white paper is great for presenting all the concepts I already have, but, you have to take the time to actually understand what's being said and the experiments they performed.
"The drop in viscosity indicates that the amount of fuel deteriorated the lubricating efficiency of the oil. E0–SO had the viscosity of 58.52 mm2 s1 which was slightly higher than the viscosities of E10–SO, E20–SO, and E30–SO. This indicates that oil contaminated with gasoline which is the hydrocarbon compound has lower lubricity and undergo more severe degradation compared to the oil contaminated with a small amount of bioethanol." There is actually a typo in there... the E85 fuel diluted oil had better viscosity then the gasoline diluted oil. The straight e85 blend maintained a viscosity of 62. Further, the paragraph below explains why the ethanol diluted oil would actually fare even better than gasoline diluted oil in the real world...
Literally every test was skewed to try to demonstrate the CHEMISTRY taking place and not the actual real world affect. They acknowledge throughout that ethanol actually evaporates at a much lower temperature then gasoline so they ran certain tests cold. Yes, the cold e85 diluted oil produced the most acidic blend (bad for corrosion and depletion of the oils add-pak). But, the viscosity tests showed gasoline had worse viscosity degradation than the e85 blend (58 vs 62). Even at 75c the e85 rapidly evaporated and resulted in less viscosity loss then the gasoline blend. Who runs their oil at 75c? Not happening on our turbo cars lol... There is a reason why viscosity ratings are given at 100c.
These tests pretty much showed that ethanol dilution is no worse than gasoline dilution. Had they ran the tests in accordance with actual oil standards like ll-01 and gf-5 to reflect actual real world operating temps at the bearings of 100c+ then you would probably have seen results which show the e85 having less overall wear on an engine than a gasoline diluted oil...
The conclusion of the white paper is not "do not use e85." The conclusion is that shitty Malaysian oil should be formulated to ensure it can neutralize the acidic nature of e85. Guess what, any oil you should be putting in a BMW is already tested and formulated to do just that! And again, you shouldn't have fuel in your oil at any significant level!
If you want a real world test that proves ethanol isn't actually having any of these "worst case" scenario impacts on your oil... do an oil analysis after 3k miles... Then 5k... Then 7k... I bet that ***given you don't have a mechanical failure** your samples are going to come back looking just fine. That's the reality of this.
Of course taking raw fuel and diluting oil with it is going to reduce the oils lubricity. And of course, ethanol is more damaging to oil than gasoline. However, you are still ignoring that this hypothetical impact is unfounded in real world use. Have you ever seen someone using e85 post up an oil anaylsis showing more than 2% fuel dilution? I never have. I dont have it handy, but someone just recently posted up a 9k mile oil change oil report... They use an e60 blend. Their report showed no fuel dilution and still a bit of life left via the oils TBN and viscosity rating.
That "white paper" is nothing more than a bunch of college graduate students re-studying something the oil industry already studied decades ago lol... Look at the references... Half the articles "objectives" are pharaphrased from the referenced sae testing articles that date back to the 1980s lol. Much of the data from this white paper is useless when applied to our cars and modern oil...
Taking raw ethanol and mixing it with a synthetic malaysian off-brand oil doesn't tell you how pump blended ethanol (contains lubricants and stabalizers) reacts with a modern gf-5 oil (an oil tested to meet sae standards to combat side affects of e85 use). The white paper is great for presenting all the concepts I already have, but, you have to take the time to actually understand what's being said and the experiments they performed.
"The drop in viscosity indicates that the amount of fuel deteriorated the lubricating efficiency of the oil. E0–SO had the viscosity of 58.52 mm2 s1 which was slightly higher than the viscosities of E10–SO, E20–SO, and E30–SO. This indicates that oil contaminated with gasoline which is the hydrocarbon compound has lower lubricity and undergo more severe degradation compared to the oil contaminated with a small amount of bioethanol." There is actually a typo in there... the E85 fuel diluted oil had better viscosity then the gasoline diluted oil. The straight e85 blend maintained a viscosity of 62. Further, the paragraph below explains why the ethanol diluted oil would actually fare even better than gasoline diluted oil in the real world...
Literally every test was skewed to try to demonstrate the CHEMISTRY taking place and not the actual real world affect. They acknowledge throughout that ethanol actually evaporates at a much lower temperature then gasoline so they ran certain tests cold. Yes, the cold e85 diluted oil produced the most acidic blend (bad for corrosion and depletion of the oils add-pak). But, the viscosity tests showed gasoline had worse viscosity degradation than the e85 blend (58 vs 62). Even at 75c the e85 rapidly evaporated and resulted in less viscosity loss then the gasoline blend. Who runs their oil at 75c? Not happening on our turbo cars lol... There is a reason why viscosity ratings are given at 100c.
These tests pretty much showed that ethanol dilution is no worse than gasoline dilution. Had they ran the tests in accordance with actual oil standards like ll-01 and gf-5 to reflect actual real world operating temps at the bearings of 100c+ then you would probably have seen results which show the e85 having less overall wear on an engine than a gasoline diluted oil...
The conclusion of the white paper is not "do not use e85." The conclusion is that shitty Malaysian oil should be formulated to ensure it can neutralize the acidic nature of e85. Guess what, any oil you should be putting in a BMW is already tested and formulated to do just that! And again, you shouldn't have fuel in your oil at any significant level!
If you want a real world test that proves ethanol isn't actually having any of these "worst case" scenario impacts on your oil... do an oil analysis after 3k miles... Then 5k... Then 7k... I bet that ***given you don't have a mechanical failure** your samples are going to come back looking just fine. That's the reality of this.
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The damage and dilution happens prior to warm up until the fuel reaches 210f and longer if using bigger coolers and lower temp thermostats to burn off contaminates and blow by.
So getting a sample of oil from a sump that's been running for a few hrs is not going to show any dilution as its been boiled off.
I'm not saying don't run it its your choice but I feel its necessary to inform people of the dangers of using it and its up to the
individual to make up their own mind and educate themselves of the pros and cons and to take steps to minimize damage not only to your engine but our injectors and hpfp pumps and that's where this thread begun before it got derailed.
The e85 fuel lube I posted earlier is not a solvent but a specially formulated lubricant to keep our pumps seals, fuel injectors lubricated when running e85.
It costs about 4 dollars with every fill up and it works.
We tried it on a noisy hpfp ticking away quite loudly as its on the way out, as soon as we introduced it the ticking stopped.
Coincidence ? don't think so.
So Im not saying don't run e85, but if you choose to just make sure you take steps to minimize damage.
So getting a sample of oil from a sump that's been running for a few hrs is not going to show any dilution as its been boiled off.
I'm not saying don't run it its your choice but I feel its necessary to inform people of the dangers of using it and its up to the
individual to make up their own mind and educate themselves of the pros and cons and to take steps to minimize damage not only to your engine but our injectors and hpfp pumps and that's where this thread begun before it got derailed.
The e85 fuel lube I posted earlier is not a solvent but a specially formulated lubricant to keep our pumps seals, fuel injectors lubricated when running e85.
It costs about 4 dollars with every fill up and it works.
We tried it on a noisy hpfp ticking away quite loudly as its on the way out, as soon as we introduced it the ticking stopped.
Coincidence ? don't think so.
So Im not saying don't run e85, but if you choose to just make sure you take steps to minimize damage.
