Direct Injection Delete

[The Convert]

I guess what I’m saying is no one person has the answer to this puzzle. We need to get the right people doing their bit for the common good.

Does the dct handle that power on the stock tcu tables, or is it being flashed/externally controlled? Also, I feel like I remember seeing Jake say something about rewriting the stratified injection tables to make more room for other additions, like flex fuel, since the tables would never be used. I could totally be wrong, but I could swear I remember that coming up in the fueling threads of yesteryear.

 

[dyezak]

Man, I’m confused. I read converts post and my take away from that was injection timing was the issue. Since the window is so short you’d need higher flow injectors to get the fuel in at the time interval we have or change the system as a whole to give us stratafied injection so there’s more than one window. Ergo we either you need a standalone or the injectors are the limiting factor.


Also while I understand we are all passionate let’s “play the ball and not the man”. If we keep commentary to the subject at hand we may actually get to the core problem and help the platform evolve. Since Tony has the most practical experience here by actually testing on a car I’d like to see more from him. I get the feeling he’s keeping his cards close to his chest. @Tony@VargasTurboTech

I’d also like to hear from @jyamona about the stratafied injection tables. Can we activate them ? And how ??

Also once the big power is made we need someone (still looking @jyamona ) to please come up with a way to alter the DCT programming.... it’s a proven 1000hp gearbox in an f10 ffs!

There are additional injection windows that should be available to use to inject fuel. We can either access those through a Syvecs style standalone or via unlocking them in the DME. @jyamona sqid that shouldn’t be too difficult.

 

[aus335iguy]

Syvecs is out of reach for some so we need @jyamona to have some time and motivation to do it for us. He’s just one man though. Surely there are others with the right skills ?

 

[Reaper0995]

Perhaps we need to share the math on what exactly 3100cc of fuel from 6x injectors equates to in power potential. Hint...each individual injector can supply enough e85 to support roughly 200hp. All 6 combined, yep, close to 1200hp worth of fuel (that's on e85).

The injectors are NOT a limiting factor *at all* on the N54. Not even close.

I'd study what The Convert said right above you.

What duty cycle do the injectors run at? I've heard he 3100cc number before, but not sure where that number came from. Is it measured, or from BMW, or just someone's guess long ago? Also where did you get the 200hp per cylinder number, all the calculators I'm looking at rate far far far beyond that if the 3100cc was true....

 

[dyezak]

What duty cycle do the injectors run at? I've heard he 3100cc number before, but not sure where that number came from. Is it measured, or from BMW, or just someone's guess long ago? Also where did you get the 200hp per cylinder number, all the calculators I'm looking at rate far far far beyond that if the 3100cc was true....

3100cc is the raw number these injectors are good at if ran at 100% duty cycle at our nominal HPFP pressure. But this isn't port injection, and you can't run 100% duty cycle or puddle up your fuel behind your intake valve and just wait for it to flood the cylinder when your valve opens.

These flow numbers were divulged by Continental themselves. No guesswork on our (the community's) part.

The numbers and calculations were done a few years ago with the assistance of a continental engineer who also disclosed the internal white papers on these injectors. Because we are DI (not PI) there was first discussion around what duty cycle is available in a DI environment, and it's much lower than PI. I can't remember the specifics but I linked to the original conversation earlier in this thread if you want to go look it up. Nobody seems to want to read the entire thread plus the links which is why the conversation seems to go nowhere.

 

[The Convert]

3100cc is the raw number these injectors are good at if ran at 100% duty cycle at our nominal HPFP pressure. But this isn't port injection, and you can't run 100% duty cycle or puddle up your fuel behind your intake valve and just wait for it to flood the cylinder when your valve opens.

These flow numbers were divulged by Continental themselves. No guesswork on our (the community's) part.

The numbers and calculations were done a few years ago with the assistance of a continental engineer who also disclosed the internal white papers on these injectors. Because we are DI (not PI) there was first discussion around what duty cycle is available in a DI environment, and it's much lower than PI. I can't remember the specifics but I linked to the original conversation earlier in this thread if you want to go look it up. Nobody seems to want to read the entire thread plus the links which is why the conversation seems to go nowhere.

100% agree. To be fair, it was a lot easier to just keep up with the thread at the time than for the newcomers to go back and read through it all.

 

[Jonvigil82]

So what it comes down to is we don't really know what the injectors really do max out at. Has anyone really put in some thought of using a high volume DI pump? I was looking at the C7 I have here and am seriously thinking of getting all the stuff machined to fit their DI pump on to an N54. We know for a fact that those do pretty decent power on just the DI, with a larger cam and there is now an insert you put in the pump to drive pressure even higher.

 

[Reaper0995]

So what it comes down to is we don't really know what the injectors really do max out at. Has anyone really put in some thought of using a high volume DI pump? I was looking at the C7 I have here and am seriously thinking of getting all the stuff machined to fit their DI pump on to an N54. We know for a fact that those do pretty decent power on just the DI, with a larger cam and there is now an insert you put in the pump to drive pressure even higher.

On the injectors, I think the answer is yes. There is still room available to grow into them, but not there just yet.

For the HPFP, now that the double barrel setup exists there really isn't a need for this. The corvette pump is cam driven, the N54 is direct drive, and I believe the controls are different as well. It would take a lot of R&D to make this work, and even if it did it wouldn't be any cheaper than the double barrel setup.

 

[The Convert]

So what it comes down to is we don't really know what the injectors really do max out at. Has anyone really put in some thought of using a high volume DI pump? I was looking at the C7 I have here and am seriously thinking of getting all the stuff machined to fit their DI pump on to an N54. We know for a fact that those do pretty decent power on just the DI, with a larger cam and there is now an insert you put in the pump to drive pressure even higher.

What's the hp/cylinder, hp/liter? Bigger DI engines have more cylinders/more displacement to make more power from. So, that needs to be taken into account.

 

[135iTX]

What's the hp/cylinder, hp/liter? Bigger DI engines have more cylinders/more displacement to make more power from. So, that needs to be taken into account.

I wonder how a single CP3 HPFP would translate to an N54. I would think fabrication wouldn’t be too big of an issue, realistically any competent shop can rig up an extra accessory mount/bracket easily

 

[Jonvigil82]

The pump is cam driven, so there would be some custom machining that would be required. That's not a big deal, just implementing the idea, and testing may not even be worth it if we are going to still be fighting injectors.