Direct Injection Delete

[dyezak]

That’s true but injection wasn’t “limiting things” - It was people being intimidated by the tech. That isnt the case here. The tech is limited on this platform and therefore limits the results.
Like for like other platforms are making bigger power with DI than we are because of the limitations. Outright power im saying.

OK, @doublespaces wants real conversation. I can regurgitate stuff that has been hashed out over the last 4 years. Why don't we talk about the facts as we know them:

1. We aren't the first DI platform by a long shot. Oil burners have been DI for decades now.
2. The injectors are NOT a limiting factor. Continental did release an internal white paper concerning the N54 injectors showing their flow (among other things). These things can handle about 1300hp on full E85.
3. The injectors are only half utilized. In that same white paper Continental explained that because the injectors needed to be piezo style for the design requirements, that means that each injector has a piezo element in it. Knock sensors are piezo elements. Continental did explain to BMW that their injectors could be used for direct in cylinder knock monitoring as each cylinder has a piezo element in it when using their injectors. BMW was presumably already beyond the design stage on knock control, or there is/was another technical hurdle to using this feature, because they didn't utilize this feature.
4. These injectors can run an N54 engine without a HPFP at all. Only on the 70psi LPFP they can allow the engine to function to support the vehicle running 100kph.
5. When we run out of fuel we are "draining the rail". This is the same thing the Cummins guys have been running into for decades. They call their LPFP a "lift pump" (lifts the diesel out of the tank), and their HPFP their fuel pump. For almost 25y to overcome draining the rail they simply add more pumps. My brother ran 3 LPFP's and 2 HPFP's on his 2007 Ram 3500.
6. We now have the option of adding more pumps
7. So far the additional pumps have been good up to ~800hp
8. Even at ~800hp the rail wasn't drained
9. @jyamona has insisted we haven't reached the limit of the injection tables either, and even if we have I think he knows where the injector timing tables are to open things up more.

If we regurgitate all the facts about DI over the last 4y what can we see? We see that we just flat haven't over-run it yet (now that we have the double barrel) because nobody (besides @Tony@VargasTurboTech) is pushing 750+hp on DI alone. Everyone jumps on PI...so there is a limited pool of testers and developers for DI to really push things.

The "tech" isn't limiting. The "tech" is technically WAY more advanced than anything we as a community have the need for yet. The understanding of the tech is extremely low with a small pocket of individuals who really understand it and a large group of people who are simply louder screaming "the sky is falling".

 

[colo_evo]

OK, @doublespaces wants real conversation. I can regurgitate stuff that has been hashed out over the last 4 years. Why don't we talk about the facts as we know them:

1. We aren't the first DI platform by a long shot. Oil burners have been DI for decades now.
2. The injectors are NOT a limiting factor. Continental did release an internal white paper concerning the N54 injectors showing their flow (among other things). These things can handle about 1300hp on full E85.
3. The injectors are only half utilized. In that same white paper Continental explained that because the injectors needed to be piezo style for the design requirements, that means that each injector has a piezo element in it. Knock sensors are piezo elements. Continental did explain to BMW that their injectors could be used for direct in cylinder knock monitoring as each cylinder has a piezo element in it when using their injectors. BMW was presumably already beyond the design stage on knock control, or there is/was another technical hurdle to using this feature, because they didn't utilize this feature.
4. These injectors can run an N54 engine without a HPFP at all. Only on the 70psi LPFP they can allow the engine to function to support the vehicle running 100kph.
5. When we run out of fuel we are "draining the rail". This is the same thing the Cummins guys have been running into for decades. They call their LPFP a "lift pump" (lifts the diesel out of the tank), and their HPFP their fuel pump. For almost 25y to overcome draining the rail they simply add more pumps. My brother ran 3 LPFP's and 2 HPFP's on his 2007 Ram 3500.
6. We now have the option of adding more pumps
7. So far the additional pumps have been good up to ~800hp
8. Even at ~800hp the rail wasn't drained
9. @jyamona has insisted we haven't reached the limit of the injection tables either, and even if we have I think he knows where the injector timing tables are to open things up more.

If we regurgitate all the facts about DI over the last 4y what can we see? We see that we just flat haven't over-run it yet (now that we have the double barrel) because nobody (besides @Tony@VargasTurboTech) is pushing 750+hp on DI alone. Everyone jumps on PI...so there is a limited pool of testers and developers for DI to really push things.

The "tech" isn't limiting. The "tech" is technically WAY more advanced than anything we as a community have the need for yet. The understanding of the tech is extremely low with a small pocket of individuals who really understand it and a large group of people who are simply louder screaming "the sky is falling".

Well said. Couldn't agree more.

Now can we close the thread? Deleting DI is just stupid.

 

[veer90]

OK, @doublespaces wants real conversation. I can regurgitate stuff that has been hashed out over the last 4 years. Why don't we talk about the facts as we know them:

1. We aren't the first DI platform by a long shot. Oil burners have been DI for decades now.
2. The injectors are NOT a limiting factor. Continental did release an internal white paper concerning the N54 injectors showing their flow (among other things). These things can handle about 1300hp on full E85.
3. The injectors are only half utilized. In that same white paper Continental explained that because the injectors needed to be piezo style for the design requirements, that means that each injector has a piezo element in it. Knock sensors are piezo elements. Continental did explain to BMW that their injectors could be used for direct in cylinder knock monitoring as each cylinder has a piezo element in it when using their injectors. BMW was presumably already beyond the design stage on knock control, or there is/was another technical hurdle to using this feature, because they didn't utilize this feature.
4. These injectors can run an N54 engine without a HPFP at all. Only on the 70psi LPFP they can allow the engine to function to support the vehicle running 100kph.
5. When we run out of fuel we are "draining the rail". This is the same thing the Cummins guys have been running into for decades. They call their LPFP a "lift pump" (lifts the diesel out of the tank), and their HPFP their fuel pump. For almost 25y to overcome draining the rail they simply add more pumps. My brother ran 3 LPFP's and 2 HPFP's on his 2007 Ram 3500.
6. We now have the option of adding more pumps
7. So far the additional pumps have been good up to ~800hp
8. Even at ~800hp the rail wasn't drained
9. @jyamona has insisted we haven't reached the limit of the injection tables either, and even if we have I think he knows where the injector timing tables are to open things up more.

If we regurgitate all the facts about DI over the last 4y what can we see? We see that we just flat haven't over-run it yet (now that we have the double barrel) because nobody (besides @Tony@VargasTurboTech) is pushing 750+hp on DI alone. Everyone jumps on PI...so there is a limited pool of testers and developers for DI to really push things.

The "tech" isn't limiting. The "tech" is technically WAY more advanced than anything we as a community have the need for yet. The understanding of the tech is extremely low with a small pocket of individuals who really understand it and a large group of people who are simply louder screaming "the sky is falling".

Where did you find the white paper on the injectors? That's the most interesting thing in this whole thread lol

 

[R.G.]

Anyone notice the manufacturer trend to return to GDI+PI? ZR1, Gen 3 Coyote etc.

 

[135iTX]

OK, @doublespaces wants real conversation. I can regurgitate stuff that has been hashed out over the last 4 years. Why don't we talk about the facts as we know them:

1. We aren't the first DI platform by a long shot. Oil burners have been DI for decades now.
2. The injectors are NOT a limiting factor. Continental did release an internal white paper concerning the N54 injectors showing their flow (among other things). These things can handle about 1300hp on full E85.
3. The injectors are only half utilized. In that same white paper Continental explained that because the injectors needed to be piezo style for the design requirements, that means that each injector has a piezo element in it. Knock sensors are piezo elements. Continental did explain to BMW that their injectors could be used for direct in cylinder knock monitoring as each cylinder has a piezo element in it when using their injectors. BMW was presumably already beyond the design stage on knock control, or there is/was another technical hurdle to using this feature, because they didn't utilize this feature.
4. These injectors can run an N54 engine without a HPFP at all. Only on the 70psi LPFP they can allow the engine to function to support the vehicle running 100kph.
5. When we run out of fuel we are "draining the rail". This is the same thing the Cummins guys have been running into for decades. They call their LPFP a "lift pump" (lifts the diesel out of the tank), and their HPFP their fuel pump. For almost 25y to overcome draining the rail they simply add more pumps. My brother ran 3 LPFP's and 2 HPFP's on his 2007 Ram 3500.
6. We now have the option of adding more pumps
7. So far the additional pumps have been good up to ~800hp
8. Even at ~800hp the rail wasn't drained
9. @jyamona has insisted we haven't reached the limit of the injection tables either, and even if we have I think he knows where the injector timing tables are to open things up more.

If we regurgitate all the facts about DI over the last 4y what can we see? We see that we just flat haven't over-run it yet (now that we have the double barrel) because nobody (besides @Tony@VargasTurboTech) is pushing 750+hp on DI alone. Everyone jumps on PI...so there is a limited pool of testers and developers for DI to really push things.

The "tech" isn't limiting. The "tech" is technically WAY more advanced than anything we as a community have the need for yet. The understanding of the tech is extremely low with a small pocket of individuals who really understand it and a large group of people who are simply louder screaming "the sky is falling".

Great info. The point of this thread was to have some constructive discussion surrounding fueling options, and it’s good to get some various opinions.

Talk about diesels and their fueling solutions now leads to the next discussion - why haven’t we adapted a well known HPFP like those seen on diesels? A quick google search shows many HPFP upgrades - would this be better than say running dual n54 HPFPs?

We still haven’t answered the question as to whether PI only is possible on the stock ECU though.

 

[veer90]

Anyone notice the manufacturer trend to return to GDI+PI? ZR1, Gen 3 Coyote etc.

Yep

https://blog.caranddriver.com/explained-why-some-engines-have-both-port-and-direct-injection/

DIY piggyback for fueling with a Ford or Toyota ECU, anyone?

 

[veer90]

Great info. The point of this thread was to have some constructive discussion surrounding fueling options, and it’s good to get some various opinions.

Talk about diesels and their fueling solutions now leads to the next discussion - why haven’t we adapted a well known HPFP like those seen on diesels? A quick google search shows many HPFP upgrades - would this be better than say running dual n54 HPFPs?

We still haven’t answered the question as to whether PI only is possible on the stock ECU though.

Whether PI only is possible or not is a moot point, if you're trying to run a N54 PI only you bought the wrong motor.

As for the upgraded hpfp vs multiple, there are a few things to consider. For a single upgraded HPFP, you'd want to make sure the internals are up to par reliability and performance wise. For multiple HPFPs, I have heard speculation that increased load on the crank pulley / hub from driving the extra pump can cause it to slip easier. But again that last bit is SPECULATION.

 

[R.G.]

We still haven’t answered the question as to whether PI only is possible on the stock ECU though.

It is. Like Dyezak mentioned, if your HPFP dies car puts you in limp mode but you can keep on driving indefinitely. I'm sure that could be expanded on but the time + know how to be able to get it done haven't been put in. Likely not going to see the guys that would have a head start in knowing how to do it put the time in unfortunately. No demand for implementation.

 

[dyezak]

Where did you find the white paper on the injectors? That's the most interesting thing in this whole thread lol

I hate ripping off content from other boards even if I dislike the owner of a board. Here's the link to the original discussion:

https://www.bummerboost.com/showthread.php?49784-N54-Injector-limits

This linked to the Continental PDF (white paper). There was even a few emails/phone calls with a Conti engineer chronicled there. But Conti has since changed their storage URL and as such you'd be in for a long weekend reading through tons of Conti white papers in their new directory structure trying to find this old one. And I (foolishly) didn't save a copy of it myself.

 

[dyezak]

Great info. The point of this thread was to have some constructive discussion surrounding fueling options, and it’s good to get some various opinions.

Talk about diesels and their fueling solutions now leads to the next discussion - why haven’t we adapted a well known HPFP like those seen on diesels? A quick google search shows many HPFP upgrades - would this be better than say running dual n54 HPFPs?

We still haven’t answered the question as to whether PI only is possible on the stock ECU though.

I've brought up the alternate HPFP thing before several times. We need a hardware solution. There is no capability of belt driving an alternate HPFP as we don't have the physical space. You would need some sort of adapter mechanisim to put it in the stock HPFP location which means complex hardware design.

I still think the Chevy LT4 HPFP is the best bet. CompCams is pushing 800hp DI only on a single HPFP on the LT4 engine. But that would (again) require some sort of hardware adapter that would be fairly complex.

 

[Abacus38]

OK, @doublespaces wants real conversation. I can regurgitate stuff that has been hashed out over the last 4 years. Why don't we talk about the facts as we know them:

1. We aren't the first DI platform by a long shot. Oil burners have been DI for decades now.
2. The injectors are NOT a limiting factor. Continental did release an internal white paper concerning the N54 injectors showing their flow (among other things). These things can handle about 1300hp on full E85.
3. The injectors are only half utilized. In that same white paper Continental explained that because the injectors needed to be piezo style for the design requirements, that means that each injector has a piezo element in it. Knock sensors are piezo elements. Continental did explain to BMW that their injectors could be used for direct in cylinder knock monitoring as each cylinder has a piezo element in it when using their injectors. BMW was presumably already beyond the design stage on knock control, or there is/was another technical hurdle to using this feature, because they didn't utilize this feature.
4. These injectors can run an N54 engine without a HPFP at all. Only on the 70psi LPFP they can allow the engine to function to support the vehicle running 100kph.
5. When we run out of fuel we are "draining the rail". This is the same thing the Cummins guys have been running into for decades. They call their LPFP a "lift pump" (lifts the diesel out of the tank), and their HPFP their fuel pump. For almost 25y to overcome draining the rail they simply add more pumps. My brother ran 3 LPFP's and 2 HPFP's on his 2007 Ram 3500.
6. We now have the option of adding more pumps
7. So far the additional pumps have been good up to ~800hp
8. Even at ~800hp the rail wasn't drained
9. @jyamona has insisted we haven't reached the limit of the injection tables either, and even if we have I think he knows where the injector timing tables are to open things up more.

If we regurgitate all the facts about DI over the last 4y what can we see? We see that we just flat haven't over-run it yet (now that we have the double barrel) because nobody (besides @Tony@VargasTurboTech) is pushing 750+hp on DI alone. Everyone jumps on PI...so there is a limited pool of testers and developers for DI to really push things.

The "tech" isn't limiting. The "tech" is technically WAY more advanced than anything we as a community have the need for yet. The understanding of the tech is extremely low with a small pocket of individuals who really understand it and a large group of people who are simply louder screaming "the sky is falling".

THANK YOU I didn't feel like writing all that out lol. When I did the calculations our injectors are about 3100cc. Needless to say the can push a fuck ton of fuel the only limiting factor is the HPFP which Tony has cover.

 

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

This may surprise some people as we are prob the BIGGEST supporter of DI only, and DI heavy use on the N54. With that said. If you are going for BIG power over 1000WHP, going PI would simplify a lot of things for you. While it would not be near as efficient, you do not have to worry about the DI injectors anymore. These to me are the biggest downfall of the N54. The pumps, we have found they are bulletproof at this point, and just supply whatever fuel they are asked to supply. Now the injectors they are extremely sensitive, and when pushing big power/big boost, its very hard for them inject accurately causing rich conditions. We have been fighting them heavy on the new motor pushing big power. At 800WHP or so, rarely an issue, now that we are approaching 1000WHP, and are asking the DI system to still do a large dose of the heavy lifting, it's been more difficult. So in my opinion, 99% of people running 900 or less. Makes zero sense to remove the DI, its extremely efficient, and cannot be beaten. If you are throwing a massive turbo on the car and looking for 1000+WHP. There are merits to going PI only. Simplicity and not fighting the DI system at high power are a couple. Also, something to keep in mind. On the new VW's which are fucking awesome. Ours just ran consistent 10 sec passes this weekend. The DI is used everywhere except high boost full power, the car transitions almost completely over to PI at that point. We need 1200CC PI injectors to make 532WHP, and still, have a safety net on 100% E85.

Also, there is a guy who was on here, that was PI only, I think he was in Germany. Forget which build it was.

 

[fmorelli]

Love how this is turning into a kick ass thread. One thing on the oil squirters and HPFP - it's not all a walk in the park. Ask me about the $14k repair when the 23k-mile HPFP went catastrophic on my N57 rig.

Filippo

 

[aus335iguy]

So it’s fuel starvation we are combating here. This is nothing new is it?
Not even the manufacturer of the only HPFP solution runs DI only and has himself said it’s the limiting factor on his build (at the moment).

With respect to the injectors, It doesn’t matter what only one of the parts of the system is capable of, it’s weakest link determines the outcome.
That remains as injectors from what Tony( the person with the most experience with his setup) says.

Once we get a pump that can handle the flow we need, We’ll need to control the injectors better. Add some N55 injectors then ??? what’s the limit on those? Use another type? Which ones ?

A PI system for cars >1000hp is a known quantity and in my opinion the big hp cars will all end up at the same place anyway. Yes it’s shit, no it’s not elegant and no it’s not ideal. It’s feasible solution that will work. A known quantity.
For DI the rest is speculative at best. No ones ever done it before on an N54

The OP asked. This is the answer. Yes PI can and will work. How, with standard DME? Dunno.

 

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

So it’s fuel starvation we are combating here. This is nothing new is it?
Not even the manufacturer of the only HPFP solution runs DI only and has himself said it’s the limiting factor on his build (at the moment).

With respect to the injectors, It doesn’t matter what only one of the parts of the system is capable of, it’s weakest link determines the outcome.
That remains as injectors from what Tony( the person with the most experience with his setup) says.

Once we get a pump that can handle the flow we need, We’ll need to control the injectors better. Add some N55 injectors then ??? what’s the limit on those? Use another type? Which ones ?

A PI system for cars >1000hp is a known quantity and in my opinion the big hp cars will all end up at the same place anyway. Yes it’s shit, no it’s not elegant and no it’s not ideal. It’s feasible solution that will work. A known quantity.
For DI the rest is speculative at best. No ones ever done it before on an N54

The OP asked. This is the answer. Yes PI can and will work. How, with standard DME? Dunno.

Were combating fuel starvation? That is what you got from my post? Actually not at all. My issues with the DI set up is too much fuel. You must have glossed over the part, where I said the car goes rich. Going to N55 injectors what would that solve? You just cut your DI only power potential in half or more. The N55 injectors do not flow anywhere near what the N54 injectors do. My post was simply 800-850WHP or so. DI only with PI mixed up up top to supplement is an easy to tune solution and keeps factory safeguards which we love. Going for 900+WHP, it gets a little trickier, but not much. We will get past the 1000WHP boundary rather soon and will do it with DI handling most of the heavy lifting, and PI helping where it's needed. At some point in time, if we get to the point of stupid power, 1100+WHP we may consider a stand-alone, DI running low throttle input duties, and PI picking up most all the heavy lifting up top. Or PI only. The platform is advancing, we are the forefront, we will see how it progresses.

 

[aus335iguy]

The fuel starvation comment wasnt about your post it was a general comment on why people add PI in the first place.

My comment on injector control was about your post however. If we’re too rich on DI only, surely then we need to drop back on HPFP pressure? Or is HPFP pressure a function of cylinder is pressure ?

Also we need to see your gear running. Once more people have it, it will be as others have intimated with a greater sample size and the platform can progress. I think without this we might be stuck in a rut. Have you considered sponsoring some cars to get knowledge of the product mainstream ?

For those that don’t want to be stuck there’s PI.

 

[Reaper0995]

What about the port flow rates? Wouldn't the N52 head outflow the N54 head? I believe the N52 in/ex valve sizes are 34.2mm/28mm respectively, and the N54 is 31.5mm/28mm respectively.

Obviously a lot more to head flow than valve size. But given how much room in the head is taken by the DI injector, it would seem to reason that a PI head would allow a lot more flow.

Perhaps this could also be contributing to why the various intake manifolds have minimal, if any, improvements?

 

[aus335iguy]

What about the port flow rates? Wouldn't the N52 head outflow the N54 head? I believe the N52 in/ex valve sizes are 34.2mm/28mm respectively, and the N54 is 31.5mm/28mm respectively.

I was thinking and speaking from a purely fueling standpoint but that does raise a good point.

 

[doublespaces]

Well said. Couldn't agree more.

Now can we close the thread? Deleting DI is just stupid.

No, we can't close the thread. I'm sick of the DI elitists, they are one of the reasons this platform is so far behind. If we did not have PI at all, this platform would be pathetic. We have the shotgun now(I have one) but we've had PI for years and that has helped progression. I'll never run PI in its current state and I'm plenty happy with DI only. But that doesn't mean we should slam all the conversation about removing it.

Deleting DI is not for taking your car to church on sunday, who gives a rats ass about being able to limp home. It serves a purpose for race minded folks. I hear a lot of people acting like they know everything, so raise your hand if you have a race car, and by that, I mean you probably should or already do have a chute on the back...cage in your car?...Sequential gearbox maybe?..I'll wait. Thats right, probably none of you. If you did, you'd know that when you want to make big power and accomplish goals, this season, there are things you do and some random on the internet with a 400whp N54 running an e60 mix isn't going to change any minds. Not everyone has ten years to wait for a solution, nor do they even care to. I'll slap myself if I still have this car in ten years.

Some of you are probably still holding your breath waiting for that CPE upgraded HPFP. Or maybe you're waiting for that evolution raceworks intake manifold. Spare me that vaporware talk because if it isn't available or doesn't work right now, its nothing to me. PI works now, and has always worked very well. Line up the best DI only N54 and a standalone PI only N54 and lets see who is who. In fact, who would wager their mortgage over those two cars racing for a full season?

 

[colo_evo]

I'm not saying port injection is a bad thing, I'm saying completely deleting the DI dumb. If you're in this boat of deleting DI you're part of the reason this platform isn't moving forward. Deleting DI in favor of Running solely PI is moving backwards technology. That's a fact.

Somebody already brought this up, but it's the same as ditching fuel injection and slapping a carburetor because you can't understand fuel injection.

If this is turning into a dick swinging contest betting mortgages I'm out, I not getting into that. I'm not rich like you guys. But for fun I'll wager $100 with @doublespaces. I believe Tony has the fastest DI car as of now and actually has balls to race somebody. I'll put $100 against any PI only n54/55 car that will run Tony. 1/2 mile, 1/4 mile, whatever. @Tony@VargasTurboTech you up for this?