B58 WHP output with 98RON fuel

gachdavit

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Mar 25, 2022
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Hello everybody,

I bought 335i E90 {N55 PWG} and honestly soon I realize, that it will be so hard to achieve solid power with just 98RON (without ethanol) fuel (Based on research, I can say same about N54. Ready to install very big turbo on my N55 PWG, but hit 650-700 HP (on the wheel) still seems impossible with just 98RON fuel. Am i right ? E85 mix is so boring for me, while in my country no E85 stations and I am restricted from many point of view).

I am a big fan of B58 (I am not expert, but what I see this is a magical platform for tuning which provides a lot of power).

Guys, can B58 engine (Mostly I am interested in m140i/m240i can hit 650-700HP (on the wheel) with just fuel (98RON) ?) Of course, I mean to upgrade turbo/downpipe/HPFP/custom tune and all standart procedure.

Also, people is talking a lot about forged internals (They were talking a lot N54 are forged, someone is talking it is not. Same about N55 (m235i/m2)).

How is situation about B58 ? Can it handle a lot of power ? And what about trans ?

Thanks !
 

RuskiRacer

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Jul 17, 2019
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Hello everybody,

I bought 335i E90 {N55 PWG} and honestly soon I realize, that it will be so hard to achieve solid power with just 98RON (without ethanol) fuel (Based on research, I can say same about N54. Ready to install very big turbo on my N55 PWG, but hit 650-700 HP (on the wheel) still seems impossible with just 98RON fuel. Am i right ? E85 mix is so boring for me, while in my country no E85 stations and I am restricted from many point of view).

I am a big fan of B58 (I am not expert, but what I see this is a magical platform for tuning which provides a lot of power).

Guys, can B58 engine (Mostly I am interested in m140i/m240i can hit 650-700HP (on the wheel) with just fuel (98RON) ?) Of course, I mean to upgrade turbo/downpipe/HPFP/custom tune and all standart procedure.

Also, people is talking a lot about forged internals (They were talking a lot N54 are forged, someone is talking it is not. Same about N55 (m235i/m2)).

How is situation about B58 ? Can it handle a lot of power ? And what about trans ?

Thanks !
The b58 is paired to the zf8 which is a very good transmission. The b58 is a closed deck motor 82mm bore so slightly smaller than n54 and n55 . Has a forged steel crankshaft , and rods and mahle make the stock pistons which are very nice for a stock piston. B58 has a 11.2.1 compression ratio if I recall correctly which is increased from the n54 and n55 10:2:1 ratio. Which helps spool times and power
 

gachdavit

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Mar 25, 2022
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The b58 is paired to the zf8 which is a very good transmission. The b58 is a closed deck motor 82mm bore so slightly smaller than n54 and n55 . Has a forged steel crankshaft , and rods and mahle make the stock pistons which are very nice for a stock piston. B58 has a 11.2.1 compression ratio if I recall correctly which is increased from the n54 and n55 10:2:1 ratio. Which helps spool times and power
Hello, Thanks for your time.

To be honest, I do not understand everything because of my limited knowledge.

Let me ask you,

How big is potential of B58 on just 98RON fuel ? How many HP (on the wheel) can it achieve ?

Thanks again !
 

RuskiRacer

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Jul 17, 2019
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Well 98 Ron is basically equivalent to 93 octane for us in the states. Most of the higher hp b58s seem to run an ethanol mix or methanol. There's some really good b58 tuners that can answer that question better than I can. I know 700whp is super easy ethanol for stock motors. 98 Ron im not sure what the octane limit for a higher compression motor like the b58 is exactly
 

gachdavit

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Mar 25, 2022
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Well 98 Ron is basically equivalent to 93 octane for us in the states. Most of the higher hp b58s seem to run an ethanol mix or methanol. There's some really good b58 tuners that can answer that question better than I can. I know 700whp is super easy ethanol for stock motors. 98 Ron im not sure what the octane limit for a higher compression motor like the b58 is exactly
Thank you sir !

I will wait others to reply as well.
 

Slowagon54

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Aug 21, 2020
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Not many will reply as the limits are not just black and white and hard to pin. With poor gas the limits are way different than with E85 or WMI. Basically you want to run as more octane as possible, simply to avoid any damage on your engine. If your pump gas is of poor quality (no matter what octane) even Stage 2 tunes could be aggressive. Especially on the high CR B-Series BMW Engines... Not sure which country you are living in, but i would wonder if there is absolutely no access to E85. If not on gas stations you could order it from some autoparts dealer for sure.

Still, if you want to run a high power b58 on pump, make sure you supply the engine with enough gas. Upgrade the HPFP (not the TU pump, you will need an aftermarket upgrade) - and go with Port injection as well. Depends on your goals, make sure the turbo is big enough and rated well over your power goals. The engine should hold 650whp stock from what i have read so far.
 

gachdavit

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Mar 25, 2022
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Not many will reply as the limits are not just black and white and hard to pin. With poor gas the limits are way different than with E85 or WMI. Basically you want to run as more octane as possible, simply to avoid any damage on your engine. If your pump gas is of poor quality (no matter what octane) even Stage 2 tunes could be aggressive. Especially on the high CR B-Series BMW Engines... Not sure which country you are living in, but i would wonder if there is absolutely no access to E85. If not on gas stations you could order it from some autoparts dealer for sure.

Still, if you want to run a high power b58 on pump, make sure you supply the engine with enough gas. Upgrade the HPFP (not the TU pump, you will need an aftermarket upgrade) - and go with Port injection as well. Depends on your goals, make sure the turbo is big enough and rated well over your power goals. The engine should hold 650whp stock from what i have read so far.
Thanks for your time !

I live in Georgia (This is a country).
I do not know how good is fuel in my country, but the best fuel is 98RON. People in my country (even me),,, we are mixing ethanol and fuel ourselves (Because there are not E85 stations, unfortunately). There are another point, I even do not know how suitable is ethanol used by me for car. Is it possible to check it on chemistry level ?

I can make upgrades of HPFP/PI/etc.

But the biggest problem of mine is, I do not want to be a mistaken anymore,

For me N55 (Especially PWG) seems pretty hard to achieve my goals (I see a lot of N55, which has a 800WHP and way more). But, all those cars was developed people who are very deep in tuning/car internals and I am not deep at all.

Is B58 the best platform today (easily tunable platform in 2022) ?

Or I must go with N54 {335is for instance} ?

Thanks !
 

Slowagon54

Corporal
Aug 21, 2020
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The N54 is an iconic engine... Whatever you do to it, it will hold it. But the B58 can handle enough power while stock as well. The biggest issue with the B58 are the pistons. As the engine has a 11:1 compression ratio (while the N54 is a 10.2:1 CR engine) its hard to put a lot of air and gas into the available space :)
HPFP, Big Turbo, Port Injection and good high quality gas (guess you have good gas in Georgia ;-) ) and you should be good enough.
 
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gachdavit

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Mar 25, 2022
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The N54 is an iconic engine... Whatever you do to it, it will hold it. But the B58 can handle enough power while stock as well. The biggest issue with the B58 are the pistons. As the engine has a 11:1 compression ratio (while the N54 is a 10.2:1 CR engine) its hard to put a lot of air and gas into the available space :)
HPFP, Big Turbo, Port Injection and good high quality gas (guess you have good gas in Georgia ;-) ) and you should be good enough.
Sir,

Many people is talking about `compression ratio` (Which I really do not understand, but it's okay. As I said, I do not know cars).

Based on your comment, ratio of N54 is better than B58 ?

Also, every N54 is the same version ? I mean, if in 2008 N54 engine some detail was forged it was forged in 2009/2010 again ?

Based on your knowledge, buy {335is} will have a benefits ? For example, from transmission point of view ? It is DCT, right ?

Thanks !
 

Slowagon54

Corporal
Aug 21, 2020
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On a 9:1 CR you have more space in the combustion chamber than in a 11:1 CR engine. It is the space between Piston and Head at Top dead center. Google it (in case you have google in your country - lol). A high CR engine is not a bad thing. It will work more efficient and produce more power. But it will generate a lot of heat (as the space is quite limited and pressure is high, explained above).

I would stick with the B58. Its the more modern engine and it can handle a lot of power. Thats why the fuel quality is crucial.

By the way - the N54 are all the same. There is no difference as far as i know (except a few on the cam housings/ledges)

EDIT: You have DCT´s on some N54´s. On the B58 i would def. choose the Automatic transmission which is the famous 8HP from ZF. You can tune the transmission as well with XHP and make it shift like DCT´s :)
 
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gachdavit

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On a 9:1 CR you have more space in the combustion chamber than in a 11:1 CR engine. It is the space between Piston and Head at Top dead center. Google it (in case you have google in your country - lol). A high CR engine is not a bad thing. It will work more efficient and produce more power. But it will generate a lot of heat (as the space is quite limited and pressure is high, explained above).

I would stick with the B58. Its the more modern engine and it can handle a lot of power. Thats why the fuel quality is crucial.

By the way - the N54 are all the same. There is no difference as far as i know (except a few on the cam housings/ledges)

EDIT: You have DCT´s on some N54´s. On the B58 i would def. choose the Automatic transmission which is the famous 8HP from ZF. You can tune the transmission as well with XHP and make it shift like DCT´s :)
Thanks for your time !
 
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rac

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you are asking too much of any 3ltr engine on 98 ron designed to make low down torque from factory. sure its possible with favorable / optimistic dyno and conditions but with questionable fuel and poor knock resistance, in the hands of someone whom is not technically orientated with tune and engine, not a good idea. your cylinder pressures and thus torque is limited by your fuel quality, therefore in order to make power you need make that power at higher rpm. with that comes a set of compromises. you are at the pointy end of what is possible within stock redline rpm and in my view anyone there should have an in depth understanding of what they are trying to accomplish, the compromises and the risks.

so my recommendation is to water down your expectations and/or plan on a very good water/meth system at a minimum.
 
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gachdavit

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Mar 25, 2022
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you are asking too much of any 3ltr engine on 98 ron designed to make low down torque from factory. sure its possible with favorable / optimistic dyno and conditions but with questionable fuel and poor knock resistance, in the hands of someone whom is not technically orientated with tune and engine, not a good idea. your cylinder pressures and thus torque is limited by your fuel quality, therefore in order to make power you need make that power at higher rpm. with that comes a set of compromises. you are at the pointy end of what is possible within stock redline rpm and in my view anyone there should have an in depth understanding of what they are trying to accomplish, the compromises and the risks.

so my recommendation is to water down your expectations and/or plan on a very good water/meth system at a minimum.
I understand now.

Just to choose N54 or B58, which I must choose ? How is your opinion about this ?

Thanks !
 

RuskiRacer

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Jul 17, 2019
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On a 9:1 CR you have more space in the combustion chamber than in a 11:1 CR engine. It is the space between Piston and Head at Top dead center. Google it (in case you have google in your country - lol). A high CR engine is not a bad thing. It will work more efficient and produce more power. But it will generate a lot of heat (as the space is quite limited and pressure is high, explained above).

I would stick with the B58. Its the more modern engine and it can handle a lot of power. Thats why the fuel quality is crucial.

By the way - the N54 are all the same. There is no difference as far as i know (except a few on the cam housings/ledges)

EDIT: You have DCT´s on some N54´s. On the B58 i would def. choose the Automatic transmission which is the famous 8HP from ZF. You can tune the transmission as well with XHP and make it shift like DCT´s :)
N54s got a major internal remodel after January of 2009. 6 bolt crank and better cams but a worse block for power
 

RuskiRacer

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Yeah I mean if hope a brand new car would shift good. But there's zero chance a zf8 is shifting as fast and as crisp as a dct just isn't happening. Dct upshifts and downshift sound way better. I've driven the 2021 m440xi there not a bad car just aren't very special to me. Faux leather interior. Lame electric steering. 335is is a much more special car than any b58 will ever be.
 

Torgus

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Well on an N54 with a 6466 700whp dynojet has been made with 93 + DP meth. It is possible but you will be relying on a lot of meth for fuel. You will want a rock solid meth set up.
 
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gachdavit

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Well on an N54 with a 6466 700whp dynojet has been made with 93 + DP meth. It is possible but you will be relying on a lot of meth for fuel. You will want a rock solid meth set up.


It seems, both is great platform and no winner here.

Maybe I will go with {335IS} with low mileage and in a good conditions (If this is possible). I think, it will be a little bit cheaper as well.

It is possible to use ethanol, instead of methanol ? (I mean people is calling it `WMI`, right ?)

50 % ethanol (instead of methanol) and 50 % water ?

Is it possible at all ?

Thanks !
 

SLOWESTN54

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It seems, both is great platform and no winner here.

Maybe I will go with {335IS} with low mileage and in a good conditions (If this is possible). I think, it will be a little bit cheaper as well.

It is possible to use ethanol, instead of methanol ? (I mean people is calling it `WMI`, right ?)

50 % ethanol (instead of methanol) and 50 % water ?

Is it possible at all ?

Thanks
WMI stands for Water methanol injection. If you access to Ethanol i suggest going port injection, and running full E85
 
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