335i rear end rebuild - diff and subframe bushings question

SLOWESTN54

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The M3 options is off the table for now. I do need to properly inspect the existing subframe, if the rust is anything deeper than surface rust then I'll consider replacing it.

I found a local garage that will reseal the diff. So I'll buy the seals and fluid then drop it over to them.

The rust issue is a bit confusing really. The front of the vehicle looks good, just some rust around the power steering lines. The rear is a mess.

My E89 has the same mileage and has been used for similar journeys and is spotless. Just some slight surface rust on the subframe. Maybe the first owner paid for some kind of rust proofing spray, or BMW just made the rear end out of better quality parts.
I believe E90's use a steel subframe, hence more prone to rust, where as I think E89/E92's use a different material.
 

martymil

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If he is already upgrading the arms he will need shocks or already has them and buy a dct v8 tailshaft which I believe
is the same but someone will need to confirm as I'm not sure the dct flanges are the same but an easy mod if you have
both and can be done for a few hundered bucks.

By the time he fixes the rust, rebuilds the diff and bushes he won't be far off buying a complete m3 rear end.

None of the m3 rear ends in the uk will be abused because 99% have not been modified so when you buy one they are
perfect and almost like new. Most of the m3's there do city driving and the distances traveled are minimal.

I sourced many M3 rear ends from the uk as they have hardly any wear unlike the US ones that have been abused.

@carabuser I'm not saying you should buy one but do your sums and by the time you factor in all the work and an aftermarket LSD I'm confident it will cost you more than the conversion anyway that's what we found here in oz.
 
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CalvinNismo

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One issue I'm anticipating is the removal of the driveshaft. I can see with the 335i I need a 50mm tool to remove the nut that holds the driveshaft. Would this tool work? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403167858962
Looks like it would, you might have to thin it down as martymil said, but hopefully not.

I had the car on stands and slowly jacked up the spanner to get the leverage. Just remember it spins ‘the other way’ (reverse threads) so you don’t accidentally tighten it all the way to FT.

iirc someone on faceboook mentioned a f80 m3 driveshaft might fit for a m3 rear end swap, no idea, not confirmed
The F8x rear diff’ uses a big nut, whereas the E9x M3 uses 6 bolts and a more traditional CV.
 
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carabuser

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If he is already upgrading the arms he will need shocks or already has them and buy a dct v8 tailshaft which I believe
is the same but someone will need to confirm as I'm not sure the dct flanges are the same but an easy mod if you have
both and can be done for a few hundered bucks.

By the time he fixes the rust, rebuilds the diff and bushes he won't be far off buying a complete m3 rear end.

None of the m3 rear ends in the uk will be abused because 99% have not been modified so when you buy one they are
perfect and almost like new. Most of the m3's there do city driving and the distances traveled are minimal.

I sourced many M3 rear ends from the uk as they have hardly any wear unlike the US ones that have been abused.

@carabuser I'm not saying you should buy one but do your sums and by the time you factor in all the work and an aftermarket LSD I'm confident it will cost you more than the conversion anyway that's what we found here in oz.
I'm just replacing the 2 rear upper arms. From what I understand they are interchangeable so I'll be keeping by Bilstein B8 struts.
 
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ShocknAwe

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I found guide rods and toe arms to be the biggest components in the rear.

I do think the geometry of the lower camber link helps as well but that will require you buying new rear dampers.

A M3 rear end wasn't available when I did mine so I kept stock subframe and did everything else piecemeal, axles diff arms etc all modified for nonM subframe, definitely more costly.
 

martymil

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I threw out two stock rear ends early this year in perfect condition, they are worthless trying to sell them.

Wish I knew I would have sent you a complete rear stock rear end you'd just have to pay for postage.
 

AzNdevil

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The F8x rear diff’ uses a big nut, whereas the E9x M3 uses 6 bolts and a more traditional CV.

thanks, any idea if this fits a 6mt/dct/at setup? would make a decent CF driveshaft swap for other E92

I found guide rods and toe arms to be the biggest components in the rear.

I do think the geometry of the lower camber link helps as well but that will require you buying new rear dampers.

A M3 rear end wasn't available when I did mine so I kept stock subframe and did everything else piecemeal, axles diff arms etc all modified for nonM subframe, definitely more costly.

any idea if a solid side arm (the one that bends if you look at it wrong) makes a huge difference?
ive been tempted multiple times to get it but i dont want it to punch a hole in the gas tank if shit happens....

it costs more in any scenario to go for a m rearend
1. m3 styled rear shocks
2. m3 subframe
3. m3 knuckles, calipers + discs, axels and a custom driveshaft
4. m3 diff
5. m3 arms will costs more than upgraded arms, might as well upgrade to spherical
6. subframe bushings, go solid alu and dont bother with m3 or pu
7. rear wheels might not clear the fenders if running fat tires due to extra track width

personal opinion, m3 rearend upgrade only makes sense if you are snapping axles or blowing up diffs but still want your car to run road courses
otherwise its just not worth the $ and hassle as it doesnt bring much to the table
 
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martymil

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thanks, any idea if this fits a 6mt/dct/at setup? would make a decent CF driveshaft swap for other E92



any idea if a solid side arm (the one that bends if you look at it wrong) makes a huge difference?
ive been tempted multiple times to get it but i dont want it to punch a hole in the gas tank if shit happens....

it costs more in any scenario to go for a m rearend
1. m3 styled rear shocks
2. m3 subframe
3. m3 knuckles, calipers + discs, axels and a custom driveshaft
4. m3 diff
5. m3 arms will costs more than upgraded arms, might as well upgrade to spherical
6. subframe bushings, go solid alu and dont bother with m3 or pu
7. rear wheels might not clear the fenders if running fat tires due to extra track width

personal opinion, m3 rearend upgrade only makes sense if you are snapping axles or blowing up diffs but still want your car to run road courses
otherwise its just not worth the $ and hassle as it doesnt bring much to the table
You can get a complete rear end from dismantlers for a few grand, like complete like everything you need.

Less track width, 20mm narrower from hub to hub.

the only thing you will need is a tailshaft to custom make depending on your gearbox, dct you shouldn't have to but someone needs to confirm its the same flange on the n54 dct and v8 dct.

And no the f series shaft wont fit any e series as I tried it.
 
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ShocknAwe

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thanks, any idea if this fits a 6mt/dct/at setup? would make a decent CF driveshaft swap for other E92



any idea if a solid side arm (the one that bends if you look at it wrong) makes a huge difference?
ive been tempted multiple times to get it but i dont want it to punch a hole in the gas tank if shit happens....

it costs more in any scenario to go for a m rearend
1. m3 styled rear shocks
2. m3 subframe
3. m3 knuckles, calipers + discs, axels and a custom driveshaft
4. m3 diff
5. m3 arms will costs more than upgraded arms, might as well upgrade to spherical
6. subframe bushings, go solid alu and dont bother with m3 or pu
7. rear wheels might not clear the fenders if running fat tires due to extra track width

personal opinion, m3 rearend upgrade only makes sense if you are snapping axles or blowing up diffs but still want your car to run road courses
otherwise its just not worth the $ and hassle as it doesnt bring much to the table

I still have stock trailing arms. I have new bearings for them though well see how those do next.
 

Torgus

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thanks, any idea if this fits a 6mt/dct/at setup? would make a decent CF driveshaft swap for other E92



any idea if a solid side arm (the one that bends if you look at it wrong) makes a huge difference?
ive been tempted multiple times to get it but i dont want it to punch a hole in the gas tank if shit happens....

it costs more in any scenario to go for a m rearend
1. m3 styled rear shocks
2. m3 subframe
3. m3 knuckles, calipers + discs, axels and a custom driveshaft
4. m3 diff
5. m3 arms will costs more than upgraded arms, might as well upgrade to spherical
6. subframe bushings, go solid alu and dont bother with m3 or pu
7. rear wheels might not clear the fenders if running fat tires due to extra track width

personal opinion, m3 rearend upgrade only makes sense if you are snapping axles or blowing up diffs but still want your car to run road courses
otherwise its just not worth the $ and hassle as it doesnt bring much to the table

Hey look, someone who gets it!

I don't trust the solid side arms either btw.
 
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ShocknAwe

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I'd be wary of spherical unless they have good boots on them. I had sphericals for a while and they wore out rapidly with all the grit we have here.

Track car, sure.
 
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Torgus

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I'd be wary of spherical unless they have good boots on them. I had sphericals for a while and they wore out rapidly with all the grit we have here.

Track car, sure.

I agree...I would go with Sealed Joint Assembly Monoballs vs true open spherical bearings on a 'street car'. Still a significant upgrade from the stock rubber bushings which deflect just by looking at them and limit movement of arms for full suspension travel and bind up(as an example).

This vs that:
bearing_comparo.jpg


I have seen the boots they make for them. I wonder how much longer they make them last?
REBOOT1_L_480x.jpg

I would assume over time dirt still eventually gets in and or the boot gets a crack.


I used a bunch of monoballs in my suspension thanks to @barry@3DM. You can see a number of them in the picture below:
BiYut5S.jpg

F stock rubber bushings. Embrace the Monoball.
 
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ShocknAwe

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I would go with Sealed Joint Assembly Monoballs vs true open spherical bearings on a 'street car'. Still a significant upgrade from the stock rubber bushings which deflect and limit movement of arms(as an example).

This vs that:
View attachment 84701

I have seen the boots they make for them. I wonder how much longer they make them last?
REBOOT1_L_480x.jpg

I would assume over time dirt still eventually gets in and or the boot gets a crack.
Bingo. And these sealed joints can be pressed into a variety of arms. Consider that bearings vs bushings subtract from overall spring rate so must be factored into decision making.

Other tidbit is that the M3/1 arms are lighter per piece which adds up significantly, and M3/4 front knuckles/uprights are both lighter and allow for use of M front dampers which due to their wider clamp diameter typically offer separate height and preload adjustments.

Lots of benefits to be had aside from subframe which I'd argue is a neutral point aside from track width reduction leading to greater choices in wheel fitment.
 
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carabuser

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Now considering a Quaife LSD. Can get it fitted for £1600 if i take in the loose diff.

Might be a bit of a waste for my usage but I've never had a car with a LSD before.
 

ShocknAwe

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Had a geared diff, switched to clutched ramps set I think 40/10 if I recall. Imported from germany, since you're in UK maybe you have a dealer nearby?

I wouldn't go back.
 
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Torgus

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Now considering a Quaife LSD. Can get it fitted for £1600 if i take in the loose diff.

Might be a bit of a waste for my usage but I've never had a car with a LSD before.

You will not regret it...after you code out all the bmw crap. Assuming you make enough HP/TQ and drive semi aggressively it should be apparent.

There is a very apparent reason why BMW only gave the LSD to the m3 in the e9x generation. Marketing. BMW did not want non M cars to have a 'true' LSD differential. They instead used the brakes to limit RWD wheel spin etc. With a 'fake' LSD, if that makes sense. This is why you get the weird rear end swaying back and forth until you code it out.

Given the power RWD n54s make, even maxed out stock twins, it is hard to put the power down with an open diff.

This mod is similar to suspension. It will not make your engine produce more, but you will be able to harness the power you have on tap in a meaningful way.

YMMV.

Again once you get in there you can spend a ton depending on your goals. New diff? Monoball everything w/ m3 arms? Rear suspension m3 struts? the list goes on as explained above.
 
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Jeffman

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FYI - Notes for this thread:
1) See also similar thread started by @Torgus five years ago (I bookmarked): https://www.spoolstreet.com/threads/suspension-help-rear-end-shimmy-still.4239/

2) “Coding out the nannies to make BMW fun to drive again” seems relevant to AWD / iX / X drive cars. N.b., original link below to onelapx1.com is dead, but luckily I kept a copy (everything below in quotes; links probably dead, too). I haven’t verified any this info - I’m only the messenger:

www.onelapx1.com/blog/how-to-make-your-bmw-actually-fun

“Electronic nannies are a veritable alphabet soup of joy-sucking, fun-killing, brake-destroying awfulness. DSC, DTC, HBA, EVB, HPS, and Maximum Brake Support are all BMW acronyms that stand for the same thing - SLOW. Each and every one of these electronic safety devices are designed for the average consumer; not your hardcore automotive enthusiast. It is surprising to me that information on how to disable these "features" is not more widely available.

While the race to integrate technology into cars has cost us some raw dynamic pleasure, one benefit is that almost everything in a modern car is programmable - if you know how to do it. In the BMW world, we call it "coding." Coding is essentially the act of using BMW diagnostic software to access computer "modules" that control various parts of your car. This software allows you to read out the various options available and change them to suit your preferences. Generally there are two types of options for each coding parameter: "aktiv" or "nicht_aktiv," and level based entries where you will choose "levels" such as "wert_01," "wert_02," etc. Coding can be confusing to set up, but a little perseverance can go a long way towards customizing your car. Luckily for us, all of these electronic nannies can be found and modified in your DSC (dynamic stability control) module. The name of this module varies depending on what car you have, but as an xDrive N55 car these nannies were located in the DSC_84.C04 file of my XDSC module. Explaining how to set up your computer for coding is beyond the scope of this blog, but I will provide which options you need to disable, and what the proper setting is.
I hope it will be useful to have the description of these nannies consolidated in one place. This information is scattered all over the internet; I would have appreciated having it in one place when I was doing my own research. Each of these nannies are present on N52, N54 and N55 vehicles, including the 128i, 135i, 238i, 335i, 535i, and X1. The following chart is organized with the name of the electronic nanny followed by the acronym it is listed as in BMW's DSC module files.
Please note - if the option in your DSC module appears different (for example, it you have various "werts" as an option instead of "nicht_aktiv" or "aktiv"), you can examine the hex data in the entry to see what the various "wert" levels are. For example, the N54 335i electronic differential setting is not a simple on/off setting, but the hex data for "wert_01" is equivalent to "nicht_aktiv." You can refer to this thread for more info: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=944126


The Definitive Guide to BMW's Joy-Killing Nannies

Engine Power Reduction to Prevent Brake Disc Overheating (FLR)

N55 X1 Parameter: e84_FLR
N54 335i xDrive Parameter: FLR_C0F
This is the worst of them all. Modern BMWs will actively cut the throttle in the middle of your track day if it has reason to believe that your brake pads are overheating. Normally, this wouldn't be such a bad thing - nobody wants to crash into ARMCO going 140mph. The problem is, your BMW doesn't actually have temperature sensors anywhere in the braking system. The computer relies on a "calculated" brake disc temperature based on several inputs including ground speed, brake pedal application force, and the frequency with which the electronic differential applies "torque-vectoring" braking. Your BMW has no way to know that you installed a Stoptech Big Brake Kit with Castrol SRF fluid and Performance Friction PFC01 pads. It just assumes you are running the stock system and cuts your throttle based on values that would overheat the OEM brake pads. Unacceptable to say the least, and occasionally dangerous. It was not a good experience braking from 145mph down to 45mph with a GT3 three feet off my rear bumper, only to have zero power coming out of the turn. This could very plausibly cause an accident on track.

To disable, set to "nicht_aktiv."

Brake Fading Compensation (HPS)

N55 X1 Parameter: e84_HPS
N54 335i xDrive Parameter: HPS
It is insane that a "performance" car has this feature. Brake fade compensation "calculates" the temperature of your fluid in a similar manner to the above "Engine Power Reduction to Prevent Brake Disc Overheating" parameter does. The higher the calculated temperature of your brake fluid (remember, there is no real sensor), the more hydraulic assist will be added to your brake pedal. In theory, this masks brake fade on the street. On the track, it makes a consistent brake pedal literally impossible. If you are tracking the car, you should have upgraded pads and fluid; you should never experience brake fade. Disabling this feature maintains the pedal's linearity and enjoyable feel throughout an entire 45 minute track session.

To disable, set to "nicht_aktiv".

Hydraulic Brake Assist (HBA)

N55 X1 Parameter: e84_HBA
N54 335i xDrive Parameter: HBA_DXC_8
In the event of an emergency braking maneuver, the average driver does not brake hard enough to sufficiently stop the car. Thus, BMW implemented hydraulic braking assist. This feature monitors ground speed, brake pedal pressure, and rate of deceleration to understand when the car is in an emergency braking situation. It then increases pressure up to the threshold of ABS to assist the driver in stopping safely. Once again, on the street this is a good idea. In Cincinnati, there is utter carnage on the highway whenever the slightest rain falls. The Ohio River runs red with blood from traffic accidents, and the roads look like a battle scene from Game of Thrones. Implementing an additional safety feature such as this probably helps most people, but on the track it is a disaster. It ruins your ability to brake hard and quickly, assuming the end of each high speed straight is an impending accident. Disable this feature for a super-linear pedal that will require noticeably more effort towards the end of the pedal travel. Be careful with this on the street the first few times you use it - you will find that it activates more often than one would expect. You will have to use a bit more braking pressure towards the end of the pedal than you are used to, but you will be rewarded with a wonderful, linear feel.

To disable, set to "nicht_aktiv". You can also set three levels of assist; "wert_01", "wert_02", and "wert_03". Default value is "wert_03".

Brake Standby (EVB)

N55 X1 Parameter: e84_EVB
N54 335i xDrive Parameter: EVB
This is another ridiculous feature that works well on the road, but terribly on track. If your car detects an aggressive throttle lift-off, it will pre-tension the brakes in anticipation of a hard braking maneuver. This would actually be great if it wasn't for what it does next - if you don't brake within 8 seconds of throttle lift-off, it un-tensions the brakes. I have a theory that people who think they are experiencing pad knock-back on the track are actually just being victimized by this "feature." Turn it off for a more consistent brake pedal that responds predictably.

To disable, set to "nicht_aktiv".

Maximum Brake Support (HVV)

N55 X1 Parameter: e84_HVV
N54 335i xDrive Parameter: HVV
This feature alters the front/rear split of the ABS braking system under emergency braking. At threshold braking when the front tires get into ABS before the rears lock, maximum brake support will increase the brake pressure on the rear pistons to equalize with the front. In theory, this reduces stopping distance. On the street, it probably does - particularly when the car has a heavy cargo load. On the track, it can upset the balance of the car and reduce reaction time. During threshold braking, sometimes one activates ABS accidentally and quickly backs off; maximum brake support will interfere here and get you "stuck" in ABS for a second or two. I recommend turning this off on the track, but it does not have as big of an impact as the other settings do.

To disable, set to "nicht_aktiv".

Dynamic Performance Control (FDB)

N55 X1 Parameter: e84_FDB
N54 335i xDrive Parameter: FDB
This feature encompasses two things - corner braking designed to "torque vector" and redirecting the power through the xDrive system for a 20/80 FWD/RWD torque split. I am conflicted on this option, and need to do more testing on the implications. Without a doubt, this feature accelerates brake pad wear - if you are driving with a decent amount of slip angle, it will be almost constantly corner braking. Traditional logic holds that corner braking is a worse way to torque vector than mechanical LSDs are and that's probably still true, but recently supercars such as the McLaren 650S started coming with corner braking torque vectoring. Granted, the software in a McLaren is hopefully more advanced than that in an entry level sedan (BMW 335i) but the point holds - there must be something to it if supercar manufacturers are going in that direction. What is frustrating about the X1/335i is that you can't separate the 80% RWD bias (an unquestionably good thing) from the brake-based torque vectoring (possibly a bad thing)? So, what's the upshot? I think it probably goes something like this:
1. Base car without this option - code it on for a nice performance boost!
2. M-sport pack that comes with it enabled, but no mechanical LSD - leave it on
3. Car with an upgraded mechanical rear LSD - ?????
I will experiment more with this feature, but my gut says that with a mechanical LSD installed in the rear, having the 80% RWD split will outweigh the drawbacks of the corner braking in terms of lap time.

To disable, set to "nicht_aktiv".

Electronic Differential (AX_Ref_Diff_Lock)

N55 X1 Parameter: e84_AX_Ref_Diff_Lock
N54 335i xDrive Parameter: AX_Ref
Let's be honest, this is really why you're reading the blog. Everyone who has installed a mechanical limited slip differential wants to disable the rear electronic differential. This option is similar to the X1s "Dynamic Performance Control," but on a more basic level. The premise is that with an electronic differential, your BMW will brake the spinning wheel to send torque to the wheel with traction. The problem is, this isn't a very good torque transfer in terms of mechanical efficiency. Installing a mechanical limited slip differential such as a Wavetrac (my choice) in the rear will allow you drastically better traction and mid-corner adjustability. The problem is, unless you disable this e-diff it will be fighting the mechanical LSD and never really allow your actual differential the freedom to do it's thing. If you have a mechanical LSD installed, do yourself a favor and disable this. If you don't have a mechanical LSD, leave it on. At least, until you immediately run out and buy a real LSD (you should).

To disable, set to "nicht_aktiv".

Here is an example of what the stability control module coding looks like in the program NCS Dummy. There are many more options than I have identified here, but I believe I have highlighted everything that has an impact on performance driving.
1557262456134-png.png



Turning all of these options off gained me about two seconds on a 1:45 second track. More importantly, it made my car extremely fun to drive.”
 

AzNdevil

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You can get a complete rear end from dismantlers for a few grand, like complete like everything you need.

Less track width, 20mm narrower from hub to hub.

the only thing you will need is a tailshaft to custom make depending on your gearbox, dct you shouldn't have to but someone needs to confirm its the same flange on the n54 dct and v8 dct.

And no the f series shaft wont fit any e series as I tried it.

less track width? so the knuckles sit closer together from left to right if i am understanding this correctly?

thanks for confirming the f series shaft not fitting :(

Hey look, someone who gets it!

I don't trust the solid side arms either btw.

haha yea i get it, im still tempted to try solid arms out though...
but not going to be any time soon, need to sort out my m3 dsc retrofit, cant turn off traction control at the moment

Now considering a Quaife LSD. Can get it fitted for £1600 if i take in the loose diff.

Might be a bit of a waste for my usage but I've never had a car with a LSD before.

lsd is awesome with a diff brace!
if you corner and/or launch hard enough for traction control to kick in, its not going to be a waste

F stock rubber bushings. Embrace the Monoball.

Embrace the Monoball.🙌🙌🙌🙌

for anyone that doesnt want to deal with pressing stuff out

For the rest of the world https://www.hardrace.com/Product_detail.asp?id=38&Car_Make=2&Car_model=5&Car_Type=8&MainType=
For the US guys https://meganracing.com//mrs-bm-0220

poke around on the respective sites, they have all the arms
 
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