335i rear end rebuild - diff and subframe bushings question

carabuser

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Oct 2, 2019
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Had a geared diff, switched to clutched ramps set I think 40/10 if I recall. Imported from germany, since you're in UK maybe you have a dealer nearby?

I wouldn't go back.
From the other reading I've done up until now, most people say the difference between a clutch pack and an ATB diff is minimal.

I'm also probably not going to make much use of either aside from playing around on roundabouts or launching in wet conditions.
 

pbondar

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From the other reading I've done up until now, most people say the difference between a clutch pack and an ATB diff is minimal.

I'm also probably not going to make much use of either aside from playing around on roundabouts or launching in wet conditions.
As I understand it the clutch pack lsd tends to be very binary in its control..which is great on a track but on the road..unlike the Quaife where the torque biasing is operative over a very broad range..also the other argument on clutch pack versions is that they work when one wheel is lifted as such in extreme cornering…clearly a road car is not going to lift a wheel..

I’ve tried my two quaife E89s with e-diff on and off and couldn’t really detect any effect either way..

I love the non intrusive way the Quaife just lets you get on without being obvious about its workings….again unlike a plated lsd..

On a damp, greasy road I’m always surprised in a non drama way just how much power you can put down without any traction control lights coming on..
 
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martymil

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Sep 6, 2017
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I had the spherical bearing control arms shear off twice and don't recommend them for street use.

put back the m3 arms and no issues since.

Yes the m3 rear track is 20mm narrower which will allow one to run more dish or favourable more common offsets.

I run a drexler in my 135i and if one can afford it's the diff of choice, I had a wavetrak years ago and prefer that over a quaife
as there is only one issue with quaife and that is if one rear wheel leaves the ground you have no drive unlike the wavetrak.
Wavetrak comes with life time warranty unlike the rest, so if your going to go for a cheap lsd nothing comes close.
 

CalvinNismo

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Nov 1, 2020
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@martymil the M3 rear track width is only narrower than a 135i or an LCI E90/E91. You can see on page 12 of this BMW document that (once you exclude wheel offset) the track width is a total of 4mm different, which is more than likely due to the extra quarter degree of camber the M3 runs. As far as I understand that the M3 rear hubs are the same width as the E92/E93 non-M hubs.

You can see a number of them in the picture below:
View attachment 84702
Are those the Hotchkis drop links? I bought some of these dust boots to go on mine. I could just get the size smaller on, but couldn’t get the spacers in. Maybe with a specific tool it could be possible, but I couldn’t manage it, even with my skilled fingers. 😉

I couldn’t find any rear spherical drop links that are sealed/protected at both ends.

I did run these camber arm bushes for about 2 years (through winter as well). They were fully packed with grease and when I cleaned them out they were as good as new. The outermost grease was very dirty though.

Now considering a Quaife LSD. Can get it fitted for £1600 if i take in the loose diff.

Might be a bit of a waste for my usage but I've never had a car with a LSD before.
I paid £2,200 for a drive in drive out for a Wavetrac back a few years ago now, £1,600 seems good value really. Would 100% recommend, changes the car, no negatives apart from the cost.
 
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AzNdevil

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my 2 cents on helical/torsion/hybrid vs clutch pack based lsd....
they all work on the street for launching/drifting/sprited drives

helical sucks on bumpy roads if you have stiff springs/stiff swaybars, they go limp once one of the wheels lift off the ground
wavetrac supposingly solves the wheel lift issue but i havent driven one myself to comment

clutch pack....the m3 diff is pretty well behaved as in...it doesnt lock up quick (enough) imo.
when i tested this back to back on my car against a m3 (similar config) on a flat roundabout, i can feel my mfactory helical engage sooner than the m3 lsd at the same speed

i tested a f platform 1 series with a drexler lsd at the same roundabout (different config obviously), it runs circles around everything else discussed here.

but of course, awesomeness comes with a nice price tag
and if i was to go for a lsd again, i would go directly for a drexler
 
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carabuser

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Oct 2, 2019
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I've read every topic I can find on these LSD comparisons and everyone has a different take. A bit like trying to work out which graphics card to buy, ATI vs NVIDIA.

Quaife seems really popular for road users and Birds are only a 45min drive away. I can drop my diff off at them, they will then do all the machine work (welded diff) and fit the Quaife for £1600. They offer a warranty and have a really good rep for customer support, so if I do decide to go with an LSD it'll be Quaife purely because Birds sell them.

From all the reading I've done, it would be a huge improvement over the open diff. Maybe not ideal when having 1 wheel lifted but I don't think I need to worry about that on the road.
 

martymil

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Actually street is where you need to worry about it, like entering steep driveways or ramp and you get stuck with a car right on your ass and 3 or 4 other cars behind that. What then ?

if the shop can do quaife they can do wavetrack, this is one investment you should not skimp out on.
 

carabuser

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Actually street is where you need to worry about it, like entering steep driveways or ramp and you get stuck with a car right on your ass and 3 or 4 other cars behind that. What then ?

if the shop can do quaife they can do wavetrack, this is one investment you should not skimp out on.
I'm not sure I follow here. I've not seen any mention of this before, are you suggesting that when fitting a Quaife that the car can get stuck with 1 wheel spinning and unloaded? Why would this happen with a Quaife and not an open diff?
 

martymil

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Its a design flaw of the quaife but if you leave the e-diff on it might not be a problem, haven't tested it but most code this out once they get one.
 

pbondar

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May 30, 2020
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Actually street is where you need to worry about it, like entering steep driveways or ramp and you get stuck with a car right on your ass and 3 or 4 other cars behind that. What then ?

if the shop can do quaife they can do wavetrack, this is one investment you should not skimp out on.
This may be true but in 35,000 miles over 5 years in 2 E89s in all weathers I’ve never had an issue ever apart from trying to reverse my car up quite a slope into my garage in 5” of snow…so going backwards, uphill with very poor traction it seemed as useless as an open diff..but I think actually both rear wheels were spinning..

On Scotland‘s often very bumpy but very fast roads it’s been great..never once thought I’d made the wrong decision..there may be better ones but this copes with a 550bhp car in most conditions…

A life time warranty, no interim servicing of clutch packs and from what I can see very few adverse comments from 1000’s of Quaife LSD users means it’s at least a contender…

I do run Ohlins R+T on their suggested settings so plenty of suspension travel, not too hard and my H&R ARBs are on the middle setting which does mean I get sometimes an unsettling kick through the rear axles at low speed over some vicious asymmetrical bumps, but not at speed where you need the grip..
 

carabuser

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Its a design flaw of the quaife but if you leave the e-diff on it might not be a problem, haven't tested it but most code this out once they get one.
Understood, so the removal of the ediff means the car can no longer prevent one wheel getting out of control.

I'm still not 100% on getting the LSD but I still think Quaife is the option that suits me currently. One of the reasons I DIY everything is that I have very little trust in garages doing anything properly. Birds and Darren Woods are the only 2 garages in the UK that I actually trust to do anything more advanced than an oil service.
 

wheela

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+1 on the wavetrack. I put a wavetrack on my last car, I went with it over quaife because as has been mentioned above, its ability to still put power down if one of the wheels lifts, or hits some soft gravel - something the quaife supposedly can't do. It's the only lsd I've driven so I can't compare it to anything else but it was the best mod I did on that car. It was front wheel drive so that lsd was extra important.
 

wheela

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I haven't looked into lsd options for my bmw because between x-drive, e-diff and dynamic performance control I don't have any issues with traction yet. But between quaife and wavetrack, I'd vote for wavetrack.
 

ShocknAwe

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I got my drexler pre-installed in a large pumpkin and just bolted it in.

It's all subjective and maybe the roads here are so bad I noticed the one wheel spin but the traction is SO consistent with the clutched diff compared to geared which always felt like it was varying pending grip levels on/totally off, would make the car snap hard.
 
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wheela

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The only bad thing I noticed with my wavetrack was sometimes when making slow turns at a stoplight or stop sign I'd get some squeal from the tires. I thought maybe it was locking up too tight in that scenario? Didn't feel off, but seems like it would be excess tire wear if that was happening. Being a FWD car may have had something to do with it, maybe bigger difference in wheel speeds up front than in back when making sharp turns like that.
 

AzNdevil

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one thing i need to add to this convo, its dependent on suspension setup (eg. spring stiffness, swaybar stiffness) AND tires
i totally forgot to add this to part of the equation...

im bringing this up because... the more grip you have and the stiffer you are, the more prone you are to wheel lift from uneven roads

fwiw, im running ast 5200 with digressive valving, 450/750lb(8/13K) springs, h&r sway bars
front -3 degree camber 0 degree toe, rear -2.6 degree camber 0.1 degree toe in
255/35/18 front, 265/35/18 rear, bridgestone re71rs

its what most people call a track setup but ...... its what i run on the street

The only bad thing I noticed with my wavetrack was sometimes when making slow turns at a stoplight or stop sign I'd get some squeal from the tires. I thought maybe it was locking up too tight in that scenario? Didn't feel off, but seems like it would be excess tire wear if that was happening. Being a FWD car may have had something to do with it, maybe bigger difference in wheel speeds up front than in back when making sharp turns like that.
this happens cause its locking up...kinda like a welded diff i suppose
 
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AzNdevil

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Do you need the H&R bars? That's pretty stiff to me unless you're a Cabrio/5er

in short, the bars made the front "feel" better but the h&r rear bar made the rear end too stiff for bad roads
imo, car is better balanced with 550/800 springs on stock swaybars but this has its own issues (rear end doesnt squat under acceleration/square bumps on the road makes the car unhappy especially at high speeds)

i'd like to find a rear swaybar thats sized between stock and h&r to test (eg. eibach) but i am cheap and dont want to spend money on a new bar

dont want to derail the thread too much, we still need to tempt @carabuser into buying a lsd ;)
 

carabuser

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in short, the bars made the front "feel" better but the h&r rear bar made the rear end too stiff for bad roads
imo, car is better balanced with 550/800 springs on stock swaybars but this has its own issues (rear end doesnt squat under acceleration/square bumps on the road makes the car unhappy especially at high speeds)

i'd like to find a rear swaybar thats sized between stock and h&r to test (eg. eibach) but i am cheap and dont want to spend money on a new bar

dont want to derail the thread too much, we still need to tempt @carabuser into buying a lsd ;)
I've already started imagining all the fun I'll have purposely putting too much power down while turning.

There are a few places that will supply and fit a Wavetrac so I've asked them for prices. Quaife is still the favourite at the moment purely for the fact the installer and product are both incredibly well regarded for reliability.

Also the benefit of the Wavetrac binding up when one wheel is unloaded is nice, but I also think that it will piss me off when manoeuvring as it will bind up and drag one wheel. On balance, the benefit of the additional performance when one wheel breaks loose will not make up for the design flaw of locking up at low speeds.
 
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AzNdevil

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I've already started imagining all the fun I'll have purposely putting too much power down while turning.

There are a few places that will supply and fit a Wavetrac so I've asked them for prices. Quaife is still the favourite at the moment purely for the fact the installer and product are both incredibly well regarded for reliability.

Also the benefit of the Wavetrac binding up when one wheel is unloaded is nice, but I also think that it will piss me off when manoeuvring as it will bind up and drag one wheel. On balance, the benefit of the additional performance when one wheel breaks loose will not make up for the design flaw of locking up at low speeds.

i remember people recommeding Birds back then when i was in the renault clio community
if they are still around they must be doing things right i suppose ;)

the clunking noise from one wheel dragging... car people will know and understand why, normal people will think your car is broken and give you weird looks

you cant go wrong either way, anything is better than an open diff (except welded diff at high speeds)