xHP Flashtool: Official Beta Results Thread for 6HP21

[WedgePerformance]

There are 2 things to consider, when it comes to reported TQ:

Line Pressure:

The transmission has to see TQ values on CAN, that are matching real world as close as possible. With the stock ECU flash our N55 test car reports a maximum of around 420 Nm on CAN, which is the direct input value for the transmissions line pressure. Those 420 are pretty close to reality, as we all know. (that's Engine torque, not wtq)

With the stock TCU flash TQ is limited to 550 Nm in Gears 1,2,3,4,6 and 475 Nm in Gear 5. With the Alpina flash, all gears get upped to 570 Nm.

Our Stages will sport the following TQ limits on CAN:

Stage 1: 600 Nm, all gears
Stage 2: 700 Nm, all gears
Stage 3: 1000 Nm, all gears

Note: These are raw CAN values. They maybe altered with thresholds or minor factors in the ECU before applied.

The reported TQ on CAN has a direct relation with line pressure. So pulling down reported TQ, helps generate slip in these units.

Pressure/TQ Management on shifts:

The reported TQ serves also as input for all pressure maps and all TQ management maps, used during shifts. So if they are off, shifts are bad/slow/slip. The stock maps (in 6HP21) have a maximum of 450 - 580 Nm (that varies from map to map). Those maps are stretched on our side. In case of the Stage 3 all the way up to 1000 Nm. But those tweaks are uselss, if the reported TQ is kept down.

So from our perspective, it's pretty bad to underreport TQ and it's pretty bad to overreport TQ. Both approaches have their downsides. I know that this get's complicated as soon as piggyback units and things like Meth come into play. The ECU does not know they are there, so it can't calculate it and TQ scaling may need to be adapted again.

The issue I have with all of this is you are telling customers they need to have maps set back to MT spec without any regard to NM output. All of my map target @ 500 nm for stock and @600 nm for Alpina on N54. N55 mid 400 nm. If you set them back to stock, especially for the N55 you get a spike in output which drops off drastically due to load drop with stock turbo. MT settings you get even lower reported output at high RPM.

Here is an example of what I'm running on a customer's N55 stock turbo AT car: http://datazap.me/u/gripandrip/wedge-custom-tune-3rd-gear?log=0&data=4-12-17&zoom=18-55

Here is an example of whet I'm running on a customer's N54 MMP turbo AT car: http://datazap.me/u/pajuis/log-1490482366?log=0&data=2-3-18-22-26-27-28-30&zoom=18-65

So please clarify as tuners like me have not been well informed with how we should be addressing L2T settings. Should I have my customers tell me which stage they are running and then target just under the values you provided to ensure proper line pressure control?

Stage 1: 600 Nm, all gears
Stage 2: 700 Nm, all gears
Stage 3: 1000 Nm, all gears

 

[trebila]

JB4 has nothing to do with it.
I had the same torque limiter intervention midrange ( what you call torque limiter 4), inducing much deeper timing corrections than you got, whatever the actual boost I was running.
always fixed it by lowering reported torque.

MHD and JB4 are listening the same PID for actual torque.

you have 2 issues: torque limiter 4 between shifts, several times, and the torque limiter killing timing once in 5th, which is not considered as a torque limit 4. In fact, the DME kills timing in 5th postshift, whereas torque limiter active is zero.

which xHP flash were you running ?
stage 2 or stage 3 ?

I'm not sure torque limit active 4 is sent by the TCU.
It looks like an internal DME torque limiter made to save the trans.

 

[WedgePerformance]

Here we go.
http://datazap.me/u/kaliber335i/v19
This is the log with Tq.Lim 4 and slightly raised Tq. Output.
The first timing drop is okay. It was tq. lim 1 (DTC due to wheelspin).

Now the interesting part:
http://datazap.me/u/kaliber335i/v20
This is the log right before the testo log.
You can see a torque output value of around 645Nm.

Right after that i logged with testo and get these results:
http://datazap.me/u/kaliber335i/v20testolog
Click on "stat_motoristmoment_wert"
This is the received torque.
And it's only getting 520Nm reported.

I changed the Load2Torque tables on V20 back to stock (V19 has raised values).
If i'm only adding 40 Nm beginning from 3000 rpm the limiter is kickin in and my timing is dropping.
I can feel that while driving.

My torque limit tables are maxed.
Fuel eff divisor stock.
View attachment 3044

Maybe I'm flashing back to Stock tcu sw to check which tq lim is activating in gear 5..
But i'm pretty sure it's tq lim 4.

@trebila: i don't know what jb4 is tweaking in this case. I'm going to ask my friend to do a log with raised tq output. He's running mhd with a scaled Map. And I believe the scaling has an influence on this all.

I know there for awhile I also thought all of the tables needed to be increased to keep from hitting a torque limiter. Not sure why or what others were doing at the time or if I might have caused some of the misconceptions looking for answers.

Bottom line I don't mess with those tables today and for good reason. I took queue from IKM0S and only increased the monitor ceiling. I only see issues with torque limit 4 when torque exceeds the torque limit values for the transmission flash. You can control torque actual by just scaling the L2T load axis and torque eff divisor (fuel) values. I know a lot of people change the actual table values, but to me that's a waste of time when your goal is only to smooth out and control the torque actual output value. For N54 AT cars I use 160/280 with a stock divisor. This provides a very smooth output value that can be easily controlled by changing the divisor values based on AFR. You can also scale the AFR values for the divisor if you need more range of control.

 

[Kaliber335i]

which xHP flash were you running ?
stage 2 or stage 3 ?

Stage 3

Bottom line I don't mess with those tables today and for good reason. I took queue from IKM0S and only increased the monitor ceiling. I only see issues with torque limit 4 when torque exceeds the torque limit values for the transmission flash. You can control torque actual by just scaling the L2T load axis and torque eff divisor (fuel) values.

Yes, that's right. I just changed everything to max, because i get tq. lim 4 everytime i slightly add tq output.
But if Stage 3 has a limit of 1000nm, why is there appearing tq lim 4 in my logs. I'm far away from reported 1000 nm.

The thing is if i let L2T and torque eff divisor (fuel) stock, i don't hit any torque limiter (tq. output around 640 nm).
But if i'm just adding 40 Nm to L2T or change the value in torque eff divisor (fuel) at AFR 11.761 to 0.850 i'll get straight the tq. lim kicking in (around 680 nm tq output).
It shouldn't kick in, if the transmission limit is up to 1000 nm.

I'm messing around with these tables, because my car is not as fast at shifting as in the demovideo of xHP.
It's way slower. Rayban wrote it's important to give the transmission the right tq. values. Or "close to reality" values.
Because mine is only receiving 520 nm, i tried to increase the torque values.
But i'm hitting the limiter everytime..

Thank you for your input. I will change these tables to yours and see what happens.
But i'm pretty sure tq. lim 4 will accur with raised tq output...

 

[natedog7700]

"So please clarify as tuners like me have not been well informed with how we should be addressing L2T settings. Should I have my customers tell me which stage they are running and then target just under the values you provided to ensure proper line pressure control?"

+1000

 

[RayBan]

I had a weird behaviour this morning with stage 3 D-mode.
4-5 and 5-6 upshifts, it slipped postshift, I saw the RPM raising 300 rpm postshift, then lowering back, as if TC was not locked.
It never happened before, with alpina trans flash. (I'm using the same torque tables than with alpina trans flash).

I have not been able to reproduce the issue.

I'll try tonight again, while logging.
I may have to raise reported torque in the dme flash.

warm up tables in D mode (stage 3) are off, it's not smooth at all, it's pretty unconfortable.
Last week stage 2 D-mode (warm up mode and warm mode) was better.

4->5, 5->6 still in warmup phase, or engine warmed up already?

The warm up comfort issue is intresting. I noticed that you've said that before, but it's smooth as silk in my case. Especially since the last revision. Would need a log from warmup phase to judge on that.

 

[Kaliber335i]

Did no one else testet higher tq output except for me and trebila?

@WedgePerformance like I said... still getting tq lim 4...
Idk. I think I'll wait until more guys are going to test this. In meantime I drive with stock L2T and torque eff divisor (fuel)

 

[natedog7700]

Who's 335 is this? Looks like its moving pretty good.

Posted by RBT

"Stock Transmission (6HP21) with low mileage (10k) and in good condition, flashed with xHP Stage 3. Line pressure increase 12%, TQ management maps adapted up to 1000 Nm of Torque."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbSYPU7L8ro

 

[WedgePerformance]

Did no one else testet higher tq output except for me and trebila?

@WedgePerformance like I said... still getting tq lim 4...
Idk. I think I'll wait until more guys are going to test this. In meantime I drive with stock L2T and torque eff divisor (fuel)

Shoot me a copy of your bin and I'll validate the torque settings and make a few revisions to see if we can get this working. I sent xHP a few N55 maps to test also. [email protected]

 

[Kaliber335i]

@WedgePerformance sent. Thank you!

 

[natedog7700]

@WedgePerformance sent. Thank you!

Let us know how it goes!

 

[RayBan]

Who's 335 is this? Looks like its moving pretty good.

Posted by RBT

"Stock Transmission (6HP21) with low mileage (10k) and in good condition, flashed with xHP Stage 3. Line pressure increase 12%, TQ management maps adapted up to 1000 Nm of Torque."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbSYPU7L8ro

that's Marco van Weerd's: https://www.facebook.com/JB4-Tuning-Benelux-854594244624581/?ref=ts&fref=ts

 

[trebila]

4->5, 5->6 still in warmup phase, or engine warmed up already?

The warm up comfort issue is intresting. I noticed that you've said that before, but it's smooth as silk in my case. Especially since the last revision. Would need a log from warmup phase to judge on that.

4-5 and 5-6, only once trans and engine warmed up already.
I've been able to reproduce it today, each time after a strong run WOT in 3rd upshifting in 4th in M mode.
switching back to D-mode just after, and it slips in 4-5 and 5-6.

this morning, warm up was smooth, that was not the case yesterday, weird.

 

[RayBan]

4-5 and 5-6, only once trans and engine warmed up already.
I've been able to reproduce it today, each time after a strong run WOT in 3rd upshifting in 4th in M mode.
switching back to D-mode just after, and it slips in 4-5 and 5-6.

this morning, warm up was smooth, that was not the case yesterday, weird.

The warmup stuff needs some time until it has adapted right. As soon as you play around with calibrations (ECU or TCU) it can always happen again that warmup is a little "clunky" until it smooths out again. At least thats my experience. As soon as things are stable for a few warm/cold starts it smooths out. Depending on the condition the trans is in, this can take more or less time.

Please send me Testo Logs from your WOT runs. Maybe the trans is slipping under WOT and short term adaptions come into play.

 

[trebila]

is there a way to add this testo logger tool in your xHP app ?
my laptop is dying, the battery is not strong enough to handle 15 minutes.

 

[RayBan]

Not instant. We will integrate this logging stuff in the near future.

 

[Jake@MHD]

Not instant. We will integrate this logging stuff in the near future.

Again, I feel it should be integrated w/ MHD as well. People will need to log TCU and DME at the same time

 

[Kaliber335i]

Let us know how it goes!

That's the plan. As soon as i get the map i'll test it

 

[trebila]

stage 3 D-mode warm up is smooth today too, so it was probably a lack of adaptions.
I have to check again if it still slips during 4-5 and 5-6 upshifts in D-mode when engine/trans warmed.

 

[trebila]

still no slip at 29 psi, upshifts looks strong, absolutely no rpm jump postshift:

next step , 31 psi.