Someone needs to be a doctor to say they have a cold too, looks like legalizing weed wasn't the best move for some.
Technical How can a valve cover heat up fuel lines?
- Thread starter Torgus
- Start date
My opinion is this thread looks like it's nothing but an attack on Marty. Not trying to stick up for anyone. As for radiant heat, it has to have some effect on the temp of the lines. I keep reading how theres no way the valve cover can heat the lines because its not touching it, that doesn't make sense to me. Unless the lines are actually hotter than the VC from heat from the injectors...
I'm a sophomore in College studying mechanical engineering and work on all my own vehicles. Im not going to claim to know everything or be the smartest one around. But I do know how to turn a wrench and get things done.
Not the best at writing so if i come off as an idiot, so be it lol.
Edit: I don't know why it took me so long to realize, yes the rail is hotter than the VC because the injectors are in the combustion chamber. It was even said in the thread, but why would I read it? That would be the smart thing to do...
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Taking a look at GDI focused research around fuel temperature and pressure (do a google around it and sites like research gate) , it seems that the increase of these two is benificial to the process and design of GDI technology. This is likely why the injector is not in the least cooled or insulated in its design, quite the reverse.
So perhaps cooling the fuel too much may cause some inefficiencies in the injector. Still havent found BMW specific content yet.
So perhaps cooling the fuel too much may cause some inefficiencies in the injector. Still havent found BMW specific content yet.
I suspect air management is a significant issue in two ways: first in getting heat out of the engine compartment, and two with the frankly shitty air intake systems I see on 99.99999% of the cars. So I bought an inexpensive 4-probe thermocouple to do some testing. Most range measurement devices will vary in accuracy across the range. When using multiple probes, this will then apply to each specific probe. I did some testing with this cheap unit and the k-type probes are not the greatest, but good enough for gross measurement of temp. They do measure repeatably, though, so if one uses the same probe in the same point, one will get the same temp. One could baseline calibration deviation with a known temp source in the desired temp range if reasonably narrow. Or buy far a more expensive/accurate multi-probe measuring device.
IR is not really useful because it can only be measured at a static moment (with the hood open, the car at idle, etc). As an aside I'm actually kind of amazed at the temps of my fuel (Fuel-It ECA tells me) in the summer, measured under my car.
But even with k-type probes, we still don't know what the actual fuel temp, itself, would be, unless you're going to put the probes in the actual fuel flow. Surface temp of the fuel line is not the same thing as the temperature of a moving fluid passing through.
IMHO engine compartment air management is a way bigger issue, and sorely under-addressed on this platform. Heat is the devil.
Filippo
IR is not really useful because it can only be measured at a static moment (with the hood open, the car at idle, etc). As an aside I'm actually kind of amazed at the temps of my fuel (Fuel-It ECA tells me) in the summer, measured under my car.
But even with k-type probes, we still don't know what the actual fuel temp, itself, would be, unless you're going to put the probes in the actual fuel flow. Surface temp of the fuel line is not the same thing as the temperature of a moving fluid passing through.
IMHO engine compartment air management is a way bigger issue, and sorely under-addressed on this platform. Heat is the devil.
Filippo
The injectors are cooled by the head and fuel that runs through it, its only the tip of the injector that's exposed to the combustion chamber.
Surface temp of the injector is actually lower than the head temperature with good airflow with the injectors exposed as soon as I open the bonnet.
My way is not very scientific but gave me a good idea where to start and see how much I can and did lower certain component temps.
If anyone cares to know, the injectors will eventually melt with no fuel flow past 800 hp thereabouts. The copper seal ring is too far back from the tip to transfer enough heat away into the head. Fuel flow will be doing most of the injector cooling.
That’s awesome! I don’t think anyone would argue about radiant heat having an effect, but the difference of a couple of millimeters isn’t going to make some huge difference. That’s what the on topic argument is about.
I would agree that most of the discussion is conjecture. But I'll point out that the way to think about distance is more area of the square, cooling-wise, than linear distance. But since we are putting fairies on the head of a pin, just throwing that out there.
Too bad this is the most interesting thread on spoolstreet right now (isn't anyone doing something worth sharing! c'mon it's winter for many of us guys, somebody has something to share!) I'm not sure whether this thread or the nearing $1,000 "is" motor mount thread is winning
Filippo
Two very important points that I completely agree with. I haven't measured the temperature difference between any valve covers so I will refrain from definitively commenting on that either way directly (as should anyone else who hasn't measured imo) and though I do have doubts that you'd see a huge difference, all the little things do clearly add up when it comes to temperature in the engine bay especially in extreme environments as @Chris@VargasTurboTech mentioned. It's obviously far easier to measure differences in things like IAT when doing simple things like changing the snorkel, putting holes in the hood, etc. but the differences are still measurable and beneficial even if sometimes relatively minor.
Regardless of any opinion on anyone or any specific product, cooling is all about surface area and air flow so I don't think it's beyond belief for someone to say that flowing more air over fuel lines may help with fuel temperatures. Whether or not it will make a difference in performance I don't know, but I think when you take the feelings out of the equation Marty's point was "the VTT valve cover allows more cooling potential than the M18 valve cover" and not "the M18 VC will directly add more heat to your fuel in and of itself"
Even BMW have realized heat is an issue.
They went water to air ic's and massive ass grills in the front bar and vented bonnets on the newer models once they started ramping up the hp.
Here we are playing with 6, 7, 800 or more and no one addressing heat issues as most are just dyno one pull queens.
Dodge and Mercedes have realized this and installed fuel chillers, vented bonnets and headlight ram air.
Adding more airflow into our little ovens will benefit more than most will think, whilst most think that having no airflow or limited over the fuel lines
has no benefit are not very well informed or haven't done the testing.
In the end its your car and if you choose to listen or not its your choice, I'm not selling anything or pushing any product just stating simple observations
we learned in testing and you dont need a bloody degree to tell you something is running cooler.
Some of the best ideas/inventions came from people with no formal education, just because you have an opinion/idea and no degree doesn't mean your not entitled to have your say without peopled ridiculing one another as seen especially in this thread.
They went water to air ic's and massive ass grills in the front bar and vented bonnets on the newer models once they started ramping up the hp.
Here we are playing with 6, 7, 800 or more and no one addressing heat issues as most are just dyno one pull queens.
Dodge and Mercedes have realized this and installed fuel chillers, vented bonnets and headlight ram air.
Adding more airflow into our little ovens will benefit more than most will think, whilst most think that having no airflow or limited over the fuel lines
has no benefit are not very well informed or haven't done the testing.
In the end its your car and if you choose to listen or not its your choice, I'm not selling anything or pushing any product just stating simple observations
we learned in testing and you dont need a bloody degree to tell you something is running cooler.
Some of the best ideas/inventions came from people with no formal education, just because you have an opinion/idea and no degree doesn't mean your not entitled to have your say without peopled ridiculing one another as seen especially in this thread.
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Yeah we'll retire this thread as soon as your Motiv close deck block sellsgood lord, this is still going?
(free advertising!)Filippo
I have not read this thread(I'm trying to avoid it actually) only a couple posts on page 3 where I'm replying. If there are named insults, please report them and a moderator will tend to them when time permits.
Not worth the effort, they don't get under my skin and wouldn't validate them.
Beyond the debate on the valve cover but, on the fuel cooling topic. AMS offer a fuel cooler for their alpha gtr packages.
That looks exactly like the OEM Mercedes one I mentioned.
Mercedes-Benz W140 S320 Fuel Gas Cooler Cooling Tube 1998 1999 OEM | eBay
Fuel Gas Cooler Cooling Tube. Any attempt to disassemble the part will void the warranty.
www.ebay.com
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Apparently not. That was back on page 1. If anything your posting has intensified.
Marty is the VC warmer or cooler than the head?
Some pictures to help remind you what you are talking about. The VC radiating heat into the fuel lines:
Fuel lines that are connected to the injector that sits in the head and combustion chamber.
The fact you think one VC over the other will have an impact is just insane. I literally feel like I am arguing with an idiot.
I just can't...
So I changed my mind, live with it and will post anything I like unless asked by the moderator not to.
I know exactly how the system works and since fixed the heat issues.
I wont be sharing it or any future development with the community.
Most vendors stopped sharing ideas and development and moved on to other platforms as its not worth the headache and cheap chinese knock offs.
What new products have you seen or any development done for the n54 lately that pushes this platform forward, let me answer it for you very little to none.
There is lot more places this platform can improve too bad it most likely will never happen thanks to people like yourself
I know exactly how the system works and since fixed the heat issues.
I wont be sharing it or any future development with the community.
Most vendors stopped sharing ideas and development and moved on to other platforms as its not worth the headache and cheap chinese knock offs.
What new products have you seen or any development done for the n54 lately that pushes this platform forward, let me answer it for you very little to none.
There is lot more places this platform can improve too bad it most likely will never happen thanks to people like yourself
Is the exterior surface of the VC warmer or cooler than the head and combustion chamber where the injector lives?
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