Technical How can a valve cover heat up fuel lines?
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Everything I sell is hand made in Australia except the power steering cooler core.
No wonder I cant compete in price with most but certainly have no competition in quality or performance.
No wonder I cant compete in price with most but certainly have no competition in quality or performance.
@b4llistic has absolutely just made my point. Vtt, bms,arm,vrsf, these major bmw parts suppliers all are getting there parts made in the same factories that you can get a $60 ebay charge pipe from. It all comes from the same place I've seen all the charge pipes from vrsf, arm ,bms there all absolutely the same quality of welds and material. The only difference is the bov location which I'm sure these companies are asking the factories to move it and inch this way or that way so they can say it's unique to there company and there design somehow. Like 90% of aftermarket parts are being made in china you either are gonna pay a company that distributes them in america or whatever country your in more or you can buy direct from China which isn't always worth it because there shipping is astronomical.
Valid.
When I’m looking to make changes to my car if it’s Maintenance it’s primarily sourced through FCP or ECS.
Product improvement purchase decisions I’m sure like the majority we shop the groups suppliers. Not everyone will have the finances to buy one part that is sold at a recouping product development cost.
Other parts like the comparison list in the previous post, is part of the continuing trend that applies not only to our platform.
I can’t say that all the products I have purchased from VTT are all outsourced there are some obvious one's as I’m sure is the case with each of the major players.
But yeah when I bought that billet valve cover the cost wasn’t the deciding factor it was for me the quality of the product.
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China is a big place, like all places there is good products and bad, copies of copies of copies with no QA/QC. Its hit and miss, I've bought expensice carbon fibre critical components that were 100% ok and I've bought cheap basic electronics that were dead on arrival. I'm sure everyone has had those experiences. You are really hoping that a supplier like bms does the QA/QC for you and there is some scope for return of goods, that is what the premium is for, the risk is transferred to the middle man rather than you the end user. Assuming the middle man is a reputable business not run by assholes.
For us Aussies its cheaper to get parts direct from Schmiedmann in Germany as ECS and FCP charge to much for freight.
Its not worth buying from China as the labour cost here is crazy expensive and mostly the Chinese stuff just doesn't last or breaks easily.
Better spending a little more once that doing the job 2 or 3 times.
Its not worth buying from China as the labour cost here is crazy expensive and mostly the Chinese stuff just doesn't last or breaks easily.
Better spending a little more once that doing the job 2 or 3 times.
There has been a race to the bottom of price in many markets, we are feeling that in our own.
People are cheap. This happens for cars, this happens for electronics... it happens in software ("I have to pay what for a mobile app?!").
Nowadays people would rather have cheap products or free. This gets to the point of defending practices of companies that sell their usage data or personal details to make a product cheap or free. Then that turns into expecting it from other areas of life.
Why are we so cheap? Is it lack of availability of quality products to compare against? Is it wages being stagnant? Ignorance?
I try my best to seek out quality products but it's hard to tell quality in products such as listed above. I, too, am hoping that the companies we trust peddling these Chinese products are doing QA/QC like mentioned above. :\
People are cheap. This happens for cars, this happens for electronics... it happens in software ("I have to pay what for a mobile app?!").
Nowadays people would rather have cheap products or free. This gets to the point of defending practices of companies that sell their usage data or personal details to make a product cheap or free. Then that turns into expecting it from other areas of life.
Why are we so cheap? Is it lack of availability of quality products to compare against? Is it wages being stagnant? Ignorance?
I try my best to seek out quality products but it's hard to tell quality in products such as listed above. I, too, am hoping that the companies we trust peddling these Chinese products are doing QA/QC like mentioned above. :\
M18 Racing ® on Instagram: "No fuel line temperature change having fuel line throw open space or throw the valve cover. 🔥🔥🔥 Advan neova AD08R Kaputt !! #n54singleturbo"
58 likes, 0 comments - m18.racing on May 25, 2023: "No fuel line temperature change having fuel line throw open space or throw the valve cover. 🔥🔥🔥 Advan neova AD08R Kaputt !! #n54..."
www.instagram.com
These are stationery pictures to show heat soak. Zero heat transfer shown. /Thread
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Any airflow will have effect on thermal dispersion, my phenolic gasket fix had the greatest benefit on our fuel temps and keeping them cool.
Increasing airflow around the fuel lines will help somewhat help cool them when driving at speed.
When your stationary measuring temps will not reflect the effect of airflow, so that post was nothing but quoting useless misinformation.
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The post from M18 proves the VC does not heat up the fuel lines because of heat soak from the VC which was the entire premise of this thread to begin with when I asked our community the simple question of: "How can a valve cover heat up fuel lines?" M18 posted this information which is why I bumped a 3 year old thread. There was also the bogus claim that the VTT VC was superior specifically because of the fuel line area, if you reread back from page 1. Both the claims that the fuel lines heating up because of the VC heatsoak and the VTT VC being superior because of the fuel lines has been proven false, unless someone has specific data that proves otherwise from a 3rd party aka not themselves or their alter egos. If I came up with this data it would be suspect. It would be simple to prove M18 is wrong with a Flir thermal cam as an example.
As far as cold fuel, it USED to matter. This is what I would call 'old man thinking' and what I mean is it mattered before for some reason so logically it must still matter now, if that makes sense. To be clear I am not calling anyone an old man, but our brains are wired to think if it worked before it must still apply today. Back in the day colder fuel did matter. When? When we all used carbureted engines and had to deal with everything(bad) that came with them. Granted hot vs cold fuel did not make a big difference but it was measurable and colder fuel was 'optimal' as you can see in the youtube clip below:
<-- Only on carb'd engines does this matter
On modern EFI motors fuel temp matters zilch:
<-- Zero gains with cold fuel because...EFI. 3rd party analysis. He specifically said he was surprised at the results and expected gains with cold fuel.
Carbs suck vs EFI with how far EFI has come now adays, they are effected by fuel temp(slightly), weather conditions, air density, prone to vapor lock in hot climates/situations, clogged jets, harder to rebuild vs a new injector, etc: https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...ects-of-weather-on-mechanical-fuel-injection/
If fuel temp mattered in terms of performance on EFI engines, and it does not, using E85 or meth 'fixes all problems' so to speak. Give that E85/Meth cools the combustion chamber down so much nothing else really matters: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/why-does-e85-run-cooler-and-make-more-power/ <-- 'cooler' fuel getting injected would do next to nothing because of the cooling effects of E85 or meth or water/meth injection, or heck just plain water injection which is basically free(pump, line, injector, hobbs switch, inline fuse) but again, I have seen nothing to show cooler fuel matters in a measurable way and if it did, it would be simple and inexpensive to negate it with what most of us run anyways in our cars.
As far as race cars F1 'cares' about fuel temp: https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fuel-temperature-debate-panic/10311176/ but that is F1 where EVERYTHING is regulated. This rule was written to prevent the teams from freezing the fuel as they used to do during the early 80s. Reducing the temperature of the fuel offer advantages, it reduces its volume, meaning that you can get more fuel into the tank of the car. Also, cold fuel can be injected into the tank more rapidly, therefore reducing the time of the pit stops. But this is F1 where the smallest 0.0001% matters as everything is so damn controlled/regulated. Hence they put in the rule about it being closer to ambient so everyone would be on a more equal playing field which is what F1 is all about.
As far as cold fuel, it USED to matter. This is what I would call 'old man thinking' and what I mean is it mattered before for some reason so logically it must still matter now, if that makes sense. To be clear I am not calling anyone an old man, but our brains are wired to think if it worked before it must still apply today. Back in the day colder fuel did matter. When? When we all used carbureted engines and had to deal with everything(bad) that came with them. Granted hot vs cold fuel did not make a big difference but it was measurable and colder fuel was 'optimal' as you can see in the youtube clip below:
On modern EFI motors fuel temp matters zilch:
Carbs suck vs EFI with how far EFI has come now adays, they are effected by fuel temp(slightly), weather conditions, air density, prone to vapor lock in hot climates/situations, clogged jets, harder to rebuild vs a new injector, etc: https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...ects-of-weather-on-mechanical-fuel-injection/
If fuel temp mattered in terms of performance on EFI engines, and it does not, using E85 or meth 'fixes all problems' so to speak. Give that E85/Meth cools the combustion chamber down so much nothing else really matters: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/why-does-e85-run-cooler-and-make-more-power/ <-- 'cooler' fuel getting injected would do next to nothing because of the cooling effects of E85 or meth or water/meth injection, or heck just plain water injection which is basically free(pump, line, injector, hobbs switch, inline fuse) but again, I have seen nothing to show cooler fuel matters in a measurable way and if it did, it would be simple and inexpensive to negate it with what most of us run anyways in our cars.
As far as race cars F1 'cares' about fuel temp: https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fuel-temperature-debate-panic/10311176/ but that is F1 where EVERYTHING is regulated. This rule was written to prevent the teams from freezing the fuel as they used to do during the early 80s. Reducing the temperature of the fuel offer advantages, it reduces its volume, meaning that you can get more fuel into the tank of the car. Also, cold fuel can be injected into the tank more rapidly, therefore reducing the time of the pit stops. But this is F1 where the smallest 0.0001% matters as everything is so damn controlled/regulated. Hence they put in the rule about it being closer to ambient so everyone would be on a more equal playing field which is what F1 is all about.
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Crap m18 post proves nothing as the temps were measured when stationary and if fuel temps don't do anything for modern efi or di engines why do we see far less timing corrections when the phenolic gaskets are installed especially in hot climates like Australia ?
In a colder climate these things might not matter but the n54 is very susceptible to performance losses in hotter climates.
The engines was never built to make the horsepower we are extracting from them and are pushed to the ragged edge so in a hot environment
every advantage matters.
In a colder climate these things might not matter but the n54 is very susceptible to performance losses in hotter climates.
The engines was never built to make the horsepower we are extracting from them and are pushed to the ragged edge so in a hot environment
every advantage matters.
Not surprising that even really cold fuel in the above example video doesn't do anything to an EFI system.
Good news is that for roughly 1psi of extra pressure you get about 3deg increase in boiling point for fuel. So 70psi or bmw 3000psi sort of solve the vapor lock of carb days.
I am going to suggest a reason for no gains in that 3000psi fuel rail being colder. Put plainly its just density ain't it.
Cool a gas , happy days big density change (intercooler). Cool a liquid , not much going to happen.
Increasing pressure /decreasing temp increases density but, by very very little.
Unlike gasses , liquids aren't really compressible (more stuff in the same space)
So whatever we think the gain is, it aint more atoms to burn per volume.
By the way you just tune for that anyway right? Its basically what mixture is, how many atoms of fuel to air . So its not that at all.
To see why these don't matter maybe this chart can help.
So how about in our bmw 200 Bar (3000psi) fuel rail ?
For a 30deg C drop (where you probably are chilling the fuel as above video to get that big a change) , you can maybe get less than 0.5% of density. Again, not important because you have to tune that and power is going to be the same.
Upping our fuel pressure from 4bar to 200+ , also only gets you about 0.6% density.
Good news is that for roughly 1psi of extra pressure you get about 3deg increase in boiling point for fuel. So 70psi or bmw 3000psi sort of solve the vapor lock of carb days.
I am going to suggest a reason for no gains in that 3000psi fuel rail being colder. Put plainly its just density ain't it.
Cool a gas , happy days big density change (intercooler). Cool a liquid , not much going to happen.
Increasing pressure /decreasing temp increases density but, by very very little.
Unlike gasses , liquids aren't really compressible (more stuff in the same space)
So whatever we think the gain is, it aint more atoms to burn per volume.
By the way you just tune for that anyway right? Its basically what mixture is, how many atoms of fuel to air . So its not that at all.
To see why these don't matter maybe this chart can help.
So how about in our bmw 200 Bar (3000psi) fuel rail ?
For a 30deg C drop (where you probably are chilling the fuel as above video to get that big a change) , you can maybe get less than 0.5% of density. Again, not important because you have to tune that and power is going to be the same.
Upping our fuel pressure from 4bar to 200+ , also only gets you about 0.6% density.
Well, my .02c on the fuel lines heating up theory.
Vtt vc vs the M18 is simple enough.
I agree the VTT vc would maintain cooler as the hot oil escapes (leaks out), thus helping dissipate any extra unwanted heat .....in the engine or fuel lines for that matter.
VTT CLEARLY made them leak on purpose. Fuckn HATERS !
Just my .02c
Vtt vc vs the M18 is simple enough.
I agree the VTT vc would maintain cooler as the hot oil escapes (leaks out), thus helping dissipate any extra unwanted heat .....in the engine or fuel lines for that matter.
VTT CLEARLY made them leak on purpose. Fuckn HATERS !
Just my .02c
This all makes much more sense now. So VTT purposely designed their intake manifolds to hit your hood. The hoods a huge heat sink, and helps with cooling iat’s. Why didn’t we think of that. Plus Port injectors are in the intake manifold. Intern the hood now cools the fuel too.
It's not about the fuel density but the temp the fuel enters the combustion chamber.
I found an article on DI injectors and fuel temp effect on the fuel spray patterns in di engines a long time ago.
If I can dig it up I'll post it.
The problem is the higher the fuel temp the more likely you will get pre ignition especially if the engine is prone to extreme cylinder temps.
Cylinder 5 is typically bad at that, so by cooling the mix prior to entering the combustion chamber it helps with cylinder cooling
especially when e85 is used.
All I can tell you I use to get a lot of timing corrections, since isolating the fuel rail of the block using phenolic gaskets and channeling air
from the front air pickups over the fuel rails, manifold and rocker cover they are almost non-existent.
Like I keep saying it might not be a problem in a colder climate but it sure it helps when in hot climates like ours.
At least the plastic rocker cover acted as a thermal insulator unlike alloy covers.
I lost 3 x #9 and 1 x #12 in a period of a year before fixing the heat issue and none since running cooler fuel for over 3 years now.
Run what ever rocker cover you like or do what one wishes with their car, you want to run boiling hot ass fuel be my guest.
At least the plastic rocker cover acted as a thermal insulator unlike alloy covers, there is a few issues with them and that's the poor
PVC system and prone to cracking under increased crankcase vacuum which stops me from going back to one.
I found an article on DI injectors and fuel temp effect on the fuel spray patterns in di engines a long time ago.
If I can dig it up I'll post it.
The problem is the higher the fuel temp the more likely you will get pre ignition especially if the engine is prone to extreme cylinder temps.
Cylinder 5 is typically bad at that, so by cooling the mix prior to entering the combustion chamber it helps with cylinder cooling
especially when e85 is used.
All I can tell you I use to get a lot of timing corrections, since isolating the fuel rail of the block using phenolic gaskets and channeling air
from the front air pickups over the fuel rails, manifold and rocker cover they are almost non-existent.
Like I keep saying it might not be a problem in a colder climate but it sure it helps when in hot climates like ours.
At least the plastic rocker cover acted as a thermal insulator unlike alloy covers.
I lost 3 x #9 and 1 x #12 in a period of a year before fixing the heat issue and none since running cooler fuel for over 3 years now.
Run what ever rocker cover you like or do what one wishes with their car, you want to run boiling hot ass fuel be my guest.
At least the plastic rocker cover acted as a thermal insulator unlike alloy covers, there is a few issues with them and that's the poor
PVC system and prone to cracking under increased crankcase vacuum which stops me from going back to one.
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