Direct port meth

Twisted Tuning

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Oct 25, 2016
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Honestly speaking, in all the years i have been running meth injection on our shop cars and certain customer cars. I have never seen a meth nozzle clog on them. I've seen a pump cease up. But mst pump failures come from lack of use and letting the meth sit in the pump for long periods of time.

Sure, using an actual injector may be marginally more accurate when using sequential or legit timed injection of meth. But realistically, the kits the use injectors are batch firing the injectors anyway. So its really not much much better than just using a nozzle. Both use small orifices for injection atomization. and are all spraying at the same time.
 
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Torgus

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Nov 6, 2016
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Honestly speaking, in all the years i have been running meth injection on our shop cars and certain customer cars. I have never seen a meth nozzle clog on them. I've seen a pump cease up. But mst pump failures come from lack of use and letting the meth sit in the pump for long periods of time.

Sure, using an actual injector may be marginally more accurate when using sequential or legit timed injection of meth. But realistically, the kits the use injectors are batch firing the injectors anyway. So its really not much much better than just using a nozzle. Both use small orifices for injection atomization. and are all spraying at the same time.

And if you use a meth kit that will open the wastegates when there is an issue with flow...what is the danger? Other than a clog which should be easily determined by flow sensor or fast acting valve aka aquamist. If the filters are all before the flow sensor than a clogged meth injector should be basically impossible. Granted any injector of any type could fail.
 

JOMARO

New Member
Sep 15, 2020
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When it comes to methanol injection. Well any secondary fuel injection the important thing to take note of is "Atomization and Distribution"

Sure you can get a couple huge nozzles to flow the same volume of 6 small nozzles. But firehose vs fine mist of the same volume, the mist will always perform better and promote better combustion and less chance of pooling. Which is always a possibility with injecting before the manifold and not somewhere in the runners.

Honestly speaking, if you're using methanol as a fuel supplement, Direct port is the only way to go in terms of safety. I don't know why people would recommend anything else. Especially if you're using it for big power.

Everyone uses clogged nozzles to fear monger people, but those types of failures are super preventable by keeping the system clean starting from the tank. Most peoples issues come from letting a Meth injected cars sit for long periods of time without running the system. and things can cease up.

Me personally, a kill map for me would be C16 or similar race fuel with 100% meth injection. I've made 800hp on meth injection (Direct port) and 93oct. Ethanol is cool (no pun intended) but the amount of stress it adds to the fuel system is huge to be able to flow enough. just my preference.

in short....big power goals, direct port meth injection.
Sorry to revive this
but what size nozzles and what pump did you use to achieve those 800 hp ?
 

Threetirtyfive

Corporal
Jan 9, 2019
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wouldn't even bother with the 7th in the chargepipe
I'm surprised you say that Justin, any reason you think that? The TMAP in the CP won't see the cooler IAT from the meth unless you spray in the charge pipe as well as direct port. The car may therefore unnecessarily pull timing as it thinks the IAT is higher than it actually is (because it would get cooled after TMAP, only in ports, if only using PI). Not only about safety if a nozzle blocks you can rely on the CP meth to an extent (never had that issue tho).

I went from CP only (over 2000cc) to direct port in addition to the CP, total flow 4200cc per minute at the moment, no problems with either really, no issues with 1 and 6 frying - think this is bro science. Recently I spoke to Ken of Wedge about this (inthe past few months ) and he's actually done EGT monitoring of every exhaust port when running CP only meth. The EGT showed no variance meaning the stock inlet manifold splits the atomised meth mixture absolutely fine.

Also the default 2cc per BHP is insufficient for piss poor 93 at the pump, in my experience, and for requiring a lot of additional fuelling from methanol when running high boost to prevent rail pressure crashing. (min 4cc per BHP, absolute minimum for n54).
 

JOMARO

New Member
Sep 15, 2020
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I'm surprised you say that Justin, any reason you think that? The TMAP in the CP won't see the cooler IAT from the meth unless you spray in the charge pipe as well as direct port. The car may therefore unnecessarily pull timing as it thinks the IAT is higher than it actually is (because it would get cooled after TMAP, only in ports, if only using PI). Not only about safety if a nozzle blocks you can rely on the CP meth to an extent (never had that issue tho).

I went from CP only (over 2000cc) to direct port in addition to the CP, total flow 4200cc per minute at the moment, no problems with either really, no issues with 1 and 6 frying - think this is bro science. Recently I spoke to Ken of Wedge about this (inthe past few months ) and he's actually done EGT monitoring of every exhaust port when running CP only meth. The EGT showed no variance meaning the stock inlet manifold splits the atomised meth mixture absolutely fine.

Also the default 2cc per BHP is insufficient for piss poor 93 at the pump, in my experience, and for requiring a lot of additional fuelling from methanol when running high boost to prevent rail pressure crashing. (min 4cc per BHP, absolute minimum for n54).
how many pumps are you using ?
i m trying to flow 2400cc with one 300psi pump and It seems like I cant get enough pressure
 

Threetirtyfive

Corporal
Jan 9, 2019
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Check for leaks, with a 300PSI UHO it will drive that much. (the PSI rating is at lower flow, for example around 2000cc at 300psi or less) but I have checked and the nozzles are atomising even with just 1.
I did want to run 2 PM190s but had massive customer service issues with Prometh, that's for another story.
 

JOMARO

New Member
Sep 15, 2020
5
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Check for leaks, with a 300PSI UHO it will drive that much. (the PSI rating is at lower flow, for example around 2000cc at 300psi or less) but I have checked and the nozzles are atomising even with just 1.
I did want to run 2 PM190s but had massive customer service issues with Prometh, that's for another story.
I am sure there are no leaks
I just realised its 2400 cc at 200 psi and I was intending to run it to 300 (that will even increase the flow more )
Makes me wonder if I should step down to 200 cc nozzles ?
I m really confused
And nearly lost šŸ˜ƒ
Better to get
Another pump in parrallel or inline ?
Or smaller 6 Ɨ 200 cc nozzles
 

Threetirtyfive

Corporal
Jan 9, 2019
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Why do you believe you can't get enough pressure? Remove the nozzles and holders and activate the pump and see if they spray well.
 

Gavin

Specialist
Apr 23, 2018
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Have a question,
I'm running dual cm10 nozzles in charge pipe,I do get timing correction frequently,I'm wondering if it's due to not distributing evenly through all runners.was thinking on turning it into direct port meth setup.if so then what size nozzle should I run in each runner and was thinking about adding a 7th nozzle in the charge pipe as a back up to help.
I'm running a single turbo setup auto trans
 

JOMARO

New Member
Sep 15, 2020
5
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Why do you believe you can't get enough pressure? Remove the nozzles and holders and activate the pump and see if they spray well.
There is so little gains when spraying the 6 nozzles ,even with increasing boost till 2 bar
And once off throttle the afr jumps to rich suddenly
Which makes me.think that its not spraying its just dribbling

AM I.asking too much flow from a single pump ?
 

Threetirtyfive

Corporal
Jan 9, 2019
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Afr will go rich backing off throttle when spraying so much meth.
Can you draw your setup? Have you isolated the cp meth from the pi meth with a solenoid?
 

Twisted Tuning

Lieutenant
Platinum Vendor
Oct 25, 2016
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I'm surprised you say that Justin, any reason you think that? The TMAP in the CP won't see the cooler IAT from the meth unless you spray in the charge pipe as well as direct port. The car may therefore unnecessarily pull timing as it thinks the IAT is higher than it actually is (because it would get cooled after TMAP, only in ports, if only using PI). Not only about safety if a nozzle blocks you can rely on the CP meth to an extent (never had that issue tho).

I went from CP only (over 2000cc) to direct port in addition to the CP, total flow 4200cc per minute at the moment, no problems with either really, no issues with 1 and 6 frying - think this is bro science. Recently I spoke to Ken of Wedge about this (inthe past few months ) and he's actually done EGT monitoring of every exhaust port when running CP only meth. The EGT showed no variance meaning the stock inlet manifold splits the atomised meth mixture absolutely fine.

Also the default 2cc per BHP is insufficient for piss poor 93 at the pump, in my experience, and for requiring a lot of additional fuelling from methanol when running high boost to prevent rail pressure crashing. (min 4cc per BHP, absolute minimum for n54).


from a tuning standpoint. there is no reason to "artificially" wet down the sensor to get IATs to drop so it doesn't reduce timing. There are tables specifically in the ME for this, that can be adjusted. IATs actually temp wont necessarily be the temp that the sensor is reading from wetting it down.

Also, if a nozzle gets clogged on one cylinder after you tuned the car with 7 injectors. a cylinder can still go lean because the AFR is an average, not individual cylinders. so the chargepipe meth is still going to be down on that cylinder because it lost the port supplement.
 

JOMARO

New Member
Sep 15, 2020
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Afr will go rich backing off throttle when spraying so much meth.
Can you draw your setup? Have you isolated the cp meth from the pi meth with a solenoid?
Yes I have a y line with solenoid to the 6 pi
And a check valve for the Cp
 

MoreBoost

Sergeant
Jul 27, 2017
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I've had nozzles clog a few times over the years. Normally a cylinder starts dropping timing. Have pulled the nozzle on that port and found it to be blocked or flowing badly. Load it up backwards to clear the blockage. The holes are less than a millimetre in size. Slow accumulation of anything will block them.
The 7th nozzle has benefits. On a 6 nozzle setup, one cylinder could be completely devoid of methanol which is best avoided at high boost.
I'd rather a timing pull with a little bit of high octane meth (and sometimes cooling water) than none at all and a scorched or detonating piston. Plus too much heat on these stock engines could be enough for a ringland to close up and cause an engine failure.

I actually find it's very easy to swap the CP nozzle between medium and high boost maps for alot more flow. Though distribution won't be ideal.

Never get why people don't just call it port meth injection :)