At what point is it necessary to PI meth?

Tuppidsay

Corporal
Aug 3, 2017
105
58
0
Seattle, WA
Ride
2008 535i
So I've done a lot to my car in the last 2 weeks. The center piece being GC Lites. At what point should I switch from dual nozzle charge pipe meth injection to a port meth injection setup? And what do you think, fuel-it setup with actual injectors or a more traditional approach like a plate or prometh tapped intake manifold approach? I'm on dual cm7s with 50/50 mix but who knows in the future after I start working with a tuner. E85 is not an option, and a plate style probably isn't an option either due to space constructions with the manifold/charge pipe and strut tower/power steering reservoir. E60s seems to be different in only the most obscure little annoying ways.....
 

Bmwfixerguy1

Lieutenant
Jun 5, 2017
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288
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Me personally think port meth is needed as soon as meth is the choice.. I currently run a dual nozzle set up as well and would be going port if I didnt commit to e85.
None of us really know what goes on inside our manifolds. We are not meth molecules @ 6500 RPM lol... We can only speculate.. The only way to know you are distribution is as even as you can get with a nozzle is to give each of them their own
Just my opinion.. The guys at @Twisted Tuning I'm sure have some valuable info to give you :)
Hope your enjoying it.. Keeps us all informed on what you choose and some before and after even if its just impression
 

Kenjermen

Sergeant
Nov 6, 2016
259
78
35
N las vegas NV
Being that your only on pump gas I assume you should be able to get away with the dual setup now, I would do a couple logs and see how everything is working. If you do decide to go with the manifold setup I would recommend lowering the water mix.
 

Bmwfixerguy1

Lieutenant
Jun 5, 2017
873
288
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07 335i MT
Hello how are you I'm really glad that I me
Being that your only on pump gas I assume you should be able to get away with the dual setup now, I would do a couple logs and see how everything is working. If you do decide to go with the manifold setup I would recommend lowering the water mix.

To kinda comment off what he said. The more equal the distribution the more meth id say you can run purely from a fueling perspective.. Basically the more even the more you can rely on meth as fuel.. Although not recommend by many those are your dice and you roll them how you want to ;)
When you have a higher water content the foul is a little less harmless..
 

Jeffman

Captain
Jan 7, 2017
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Just wondering...
When spraying meth into each intake via PI, is there enough time for the meth to fully evaporate and therefore cool the air charge being injected? In other words, is there a long enough flight path from the injector tip to the valve for proper cooling of the air charge? I worry that the the injectors may be too closet to the valves for the meth spray to do its cooling magic. Has anyone calculated this? Would certain PI+manifold combos be preferred for meth injection?
 

Sw4y1313

Private
Nov 7, 2016
31
37
0
Lacey, WA
I run DP meth, along with 2 others here in Seattle. We all make over 600whp easy. I was tuning one of them on dual CP setup and re-tuned his car when he switched to direct port this past weekend. We were pushing the car with RB NextGen+ @ 24psi and 9 degrees of timing on CP meth, but his trims were split quite a bit and timing was never consistant. Now with DP meth his car is really consistent and his bank-to-bank fuel trims are damn near overlapping. We all run 100% methanol and have zero issues with IATs. I honestly think DP meth is the best option for those in the PNW who need additional fueling. Ethanol stations are almost non existent and meth isn't used unless you drive your car hard. If you want to know more let me know, I've helped all the guys here locally pick out nozzle sizes.

Check out the races between the two guys im talking about: https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads/e90-showdown-rb-vs-mmp.2098/
 

Sw4y1313

Private
Nov 7, 2016
31
37
0
Lacey, WA
Just wondering...
When spraying meth into each intake via PI, is there enough time for the meth to fully evaporate and therefore cool the air charge being injected? In other words, is there a long enough flight path from the injector tip to the valve for proper cooling of the air charge? I worry that the the injectors may be too closet to the valves for the meth spray to do its cooling magic. Has anyone calculated this? Would certain PI+manifold combos be preferred for meth injection?

This is why we also run a 7th nozzle in the charge pipe. Look at the logs posted in the above race thread i linked to. Ivan's IATs are insanely low. They go from ambient to below ambient and back to ambient again after a full 3-4-5gear pull. And we did the 1st/2nd runs about 3 minutes apart, and same between the 4th and 5th run.
 

Jeffman

Captain
Jan 7, 2017
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This is why we also run a 7th nozzle in the charge pipe. Look at the logs posted in the above race thread i linked to. Ivan's IATs are insanely low. They go from ambient to below ambient and back to ambient again after a full 3-4-5gear pull. And we did the 1st/2nd runs about 3 minutes apart, and same between the 4th and 5th run.
I am really tempted! I just have 93 octane right now. I only have one port on my cPE charge pipe between the IC end and the diverter valve port. Stock turbos and stock oem catted DPs. What would you recommend for a meth kit running MHD custom flash only?
 

Kenjermen

Sergeant
Nov 6, 2016
259
78
35
N las vegas NV
It's the water that
Just wondering...
When spraying meth into each intake via PI, is there enough time for the meth to fully evaporate and therefore cool the air charge being injected? In other words, is there a long enough flight path from the injector tip to the valve for proper cooling of the air charge? I worry that the the injectors may be too closet to the valves for the meth spray to do its cooling magic. Has anyone calculated this? Would certain PI+manifold combos be preferred for meth injection?
Water is cooling the air, the meth does do it but it's more used as a fuel additive
 
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Sw4y1313

Private
Nov 7, 2016
31
37
0
Lacey, WA
I am really tempted! I just have 93 octane right now. I only have one port on my cPE charge pipe between the IC end and the diverter valve port. Stock turbos and stock oem catted DPs. What would you recommend for a meth kit running MHD custom flash only?

Honestly DP Meth is a bit overboard for stock turbos. Unless you run something like 150cc nozzles per cylinder then you can adjust the 7th nozzle size depending on your power goals or if you upgrade turbos later. You could easily max out stock turbos with DP meth and 93 octane. You wouldn't even need anything more than a stage1 fuel pump. You may not even need that...

As for meth kits, my buddy Todd runs a Snow Performance progressive meth kit, which he turned into direct port meth this past weekend. My buddy Ivan runs a AEM Progressive methanol kit with TwistedTuning meth plate. He purchased the additional fail safe controller for the AEM kit. Honestly for stock turbos you don't need anything crazy fancy, just something with a fail safe in case you go low on meth or something happens. My controller, the TorqByte CM5-LT is probably the best you can get. Its basically an AIC6 but for methanol. It can drive 2 pumps, a solenoid, a fail safe relay, and 2 other additional input safeties(flow sensor and level sensor). You also have a table for each pump, and the solenoid to control how much duty cycle they get using boost vs rpm.
 
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Tuppidsay

Corporal
Aug 3, 2017
105
58
0
Seattle, WA
Ride
2008 535i
I run DP meth, along with 2 others here in Seattle. We all make over 600whp easy. I was tuning one of them on dual CP setup and re-tuned his car when he switched to direct port this past weekend. We were pushing the car with RB NextGen+ @ 24psi and 9 degrees of timing on CP meth, but his trims were split quite a bit and timing was never consistant. Now with DP meth his car is really consistent and his bank-to-bank fuel trims are damn near overlapping. We all run 100% methanol and have zero issues with IATs. I honestly think DP meth is the best option for those in the PNW who need additional fueling. Ethanol stations are almost non existent and meth isn't used unless you drive your car hard. If you want to know more let me know, I've helped all the guys here locally pick out nozzle sizes.

Check out the races between the two guys im talking about: https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads/e90-showdown-rb-vs-mmp.2098/

I will get ahold of you through PNWN54 soon. Y'all got me convinced. I'm seeing the wonky a/f's in my logs and random timing drops in my logs as well.
 

JAperformance

Specialist
Feb 13, 2017
90
44
0
Ride
09 335i
I believe DP Meth is the only way to go specially with ST or Hybrids. I'm currently in process of converting my existing Fuel-it PI to Port Meth. Well see how it turns out once @[email protected] gets it done ;)
 

Twisted Tuning

Lieutenant
Platinum Vendor
Oct 25, 2016
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New York
www.twistedtuning.com
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N54 and N55 Cars
Direct port injection for any secondary fuel being injected into the engine is ALWAYS the best way short of DIRECT INJECTION. No matter what some vendors may say. Chargepipe and Throttle Body injection is NOT ideal for any injection. Does it work? sure, but it is not the best route.

Everyone on this platform knows the intake manifolds on these cars as well as many others i have worked with are known for un-equal distribution. So why people keep pushing the charge pipe injection is beyond me.

DP Meth is no more overkill on stock turbos than someone running big single nozzle injection. Only difference is, DP meth is the right way to do it. And is the best way to inject supporting fuel and get the distribution right. There is a reason there are so many DP meth plates now after i originally posted the first pics of my design over a year ago. Notice there were none before me?

Anyway, you cannot go wrong with DP Meth. And with a selection of nozzle sizes to suit any needs big or small. For the extra coin, its worth it, as you can get larger nozzles later if you upgrade turbos or need more flow.

We offer 6 different nozzle sizes with our kits....

https://twistedtuning.com/collections/frontpage/products/hypersonic-methanol-injection-nozzles

From 60ml/mil up to 625ml/min

And two different plate kits (soon to be 3 - Full kit with a pump and controller and etc)

Justin the Plate and hardware...

https://twistedtuning.com/collectio...isted-tuning-direct-port-meth-injection-plate

2017-05-1010-34-14_1024x1024@2x.jpg


And the Full conversion for those that have an existing meth kit...

https://twistedtuning.com/collectio...direct-port-methanol-injection-conversion-kit

33335226015_59665ff6f6_z_1024x1024@2x.jpg


There is really no reason not to go DP meth at any time.

Also, N55 kits are now available. just not up on the site yet.
 

Twisted Tuning

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Oct 25, 2016
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@Sw4y1313 and Ivan are both running my plates. and both are making very good power on the Meth. 600+whp from both of them. So thats an idea of what DP meth can do.

Also currently tuning a big turbo N55 which has already made 730whp on DP meth. Shooting for more, lol.
 
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Jeffman

Captain
Jan 7, 2017
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I'll be starting from scratch. Can you recommend a full DIY including tank and controller for adding meth to a stock turbo / FBO with catted downpipes
running 93 octane / flash only MHD?
 
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Twisted Tuning

Lieutenant
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Oct 25, 2016
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I'll be starting from scratch. Can you recommend a full DIY including tank and controller for adding meth to a stock turbo / FBO with catted downpipes
running 93 octane / flash only MHD?


i don't have a DIY instructional. But the only controllers i use are Snow Performance Stage 3, Aquamist HFS4, and AEM controller. Most of the available pumps are the same or similar. I offer a nice solenoid to go with the kit and etc. Tank get whatever suits your needs and space you're willing to lose
 

Sw4y1313

Private
Nov 7, 2016
31
37
0
Lacey, WA
I'll be starting from scratch. Can you recommend a full DIY including tank and controller for adding meth to a stock turbo / FBO with catted downpipes
running 93 octane / flash only MHD?

Dude you can't beat Justins prices on the components. You could piece a kit together using USPlastics to buy your tank for $50(same tanks all the meth companies use without the markup), pick up a controller and pump and get the rest from Justin.
 

Jeffman

Captain
Jan 7, 2017
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Nice. I've heard of all those controllers. I'll be doing my research but just wondering if any are known to work better or more easily with an N54 daily driver. For example when I'm out of meth it just stays off, and can stay that way for a few months during the winter months where I am. Thanks. :)
 

Bmwfixerguy1

Lieutenant
Jun 5, 2017
873
288
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07 335i MT
Man reading all this is making me wanna stick with meth lol.
Especially since I'm running good right now.
Any advice I can lend with meth is hard line what ever you can. Compression fitting everything and no no no quick connect fittings at all!
 

dyezak

Major
May 4, 2017
1,768
1,515
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Plano TX
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335is
Rule of thumb:

If you are using meth for cooling only added to a good tune just for consistency. Then there's no need for port injection at all.

Any other use, especially if you are using it as a fueling supplement to push a tune, then you want to move to port injection.