Advancing the platform - Glides, are they cheating ?

[aus335iguy]

As per this thread https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads/2018-n54-predictions.2467/page-2
The conversation is around what its going to take to advance the platform. Tony doesn’t think that putting a glide in a drag car IS advancing the platform and its “cheating” I disagree. Whilst it is using “old school tech” its getting the car down the quarter quicker (by a massive 0.7sec) than any other ergo it is “advancement”

I think that the most likely way that we will advance is bigger and bigger single turbo cars with whatever is able to hold the power behind them. As was pointed out the DCT in the platform is capable of doing it but there is limited investment in making it work.

I think Tony should invest in developing a solution for DCTs if he’s serious about moving things forward but i dont think his skill set matches what’s required.

I think GC’s at full song with a tuned DCT would be the ultimate package personally. Great daily driver!

Just what i think - what do you all think ?
Is it “cheating”?
What will advance the platform ?

Oh and no personal attacks please - its about cars. That means you cant call people captain slushie Tony

 

[ninjacoupe]

1/4 mile records and drag racing in general have always been run whatcha brung! This platform is old enough now to have outgrown all these silly record classes. Its a platform record now in my eyes PERIOD! No more silly full weight with sunroof twin auto records or single 6 speed non lsd on 18s. The n54 has been around long enough to have outgrown this.

 

[N54QC]

I think a lot of us like seeing cars for our platform break new records but at the same time most of us like seeing practical setups for a development stand point that we can utilize on our own cars. A mast majority of us aren't building drag specific cars and there is cars on the road that are in the 9's that still can be used to commute. Point being, a power glide is not cheating because there is no set rules against it, but I can see others point that it's not a practical setup for the masses and we all would like to see a solution that is more applicable for people who aren't looking to build a drag car. It is a development and a way to break a record, but at the end of the day it's a niche development. My comment isn't to bash anybody or there accomplishments, just speaking my opinion and think a lot of people might share the same thought.

 

[Terry@BMS]

I think many on the platform have migrated from 1/4 mile racing to 1/2 mile racing. And while the glide will kill it on the 1/4 mile, it's unworkable for 1/2 mile racing.

 

[Mellow Yellow]

The 4l80 still seems promising but I haven't seen a thing about it within at least the last 6 months

 

[aus335iguy]

I agree its a bit of an oxymoron. Quarter mile drags were originally about measuring acceleration in a controlled way to simulate what happens on real roads in real cars. As we developed cars it became less about what is practical and more about breaking records. It moved cars away from practical. In my opinion though its still the standard.

 

[aus335iguy]

The 4l80 still seems promising but I haven't seen a thing about it within at least the last 6 months

Now that you mention it it has been rather quiet. I know AD-E are developing a car(with a syvecs ECU) but i dont know where that got to

 

[Terry@BMS]

Donnie has an AD 4L80E kit but so far various problems and its yet to make a pass. Not sure where it stands right now.

 

[dyezak]

I think GC’s at full song with a tuned DCT would be the ultimate package personally. Great daily driver!

Just what i think - what do you all think ?

Wait...are you digging around in my head/build thread?

 

[aus335iguy]

Wait...are you digging around in my head/build thread?

Ha ha yeah but it’s not why I mentioned it. Kinda goes against the whole glide thing but for me the best car in the world is one that drives and behaves like stock when in traffic and an animal on the track. That’s why I sought out a rare 09 335 with n54 and DCT. I paid too much compared to others but it’s exactly what I wanted

I spose we’re alike in that respect.

 

[langsbr]

I wouldn't call it cheating, but I wonder in Tony's case about the marketability of a powerglide, or even a 4L80e kit. The 4l80e kit possibly, but a glide? I doubt there is a huge market, since it's not really ideal for street cars.

I think Tony and VTT is focused on making the most power, and being the quickest/fastest with generally accepted drivetrains. I like their focus on twin turbos rather than singles as well. If their only goal is to run a certain time, we all know you'd be better off with a junkyard LS, Yuge turbo, and a glide. That's a combo for 1000+ whp on a budget.

I do agree that a DCT solution would be cool, but also limited in scope, just because of cost. Maybe a different geared manual trans? But then the question becomes which one? T56? To use it effectively, you'd need to pair it with an 8.8 rear end to get proper gearing, so even more added cost.

 

[DennisKing]

I think that if you want to talk about "advancing the platform" it needs to involve platform related parts.
If you want to make an E90 drag car and stuff a twin turbo LS motor in it with a Powerglide, that isn't advancing anything but your 60ft and quarter mile times.
May as well stuff a 2J in while you're at it.
Is it cool that people are adapting better working parts for these cars, yeah. Is it cool they're turning quicker times. Sure. Is it advancing the platform, no. It's innovative and creative but sticking old dinosaur car parts (albeit very reliable tried and true stuff) isn't advancement. It's like walking in to a Star Wars movie with a 6 shooter. Does it work, yeah, but it's not advancing anything.

 

[doublespaces]

No, it isn't cheating because at the pinnacle of drag racing you take everything about your car, tear it out and replace it with single purpose parts that just so happen to include wheels. It is no longer a road car, it is a machine that moves from one point to another and is otherwise worthless. So within that definition, no, a power glide is not cheating because drag racing only cares about one thing.

On another note, this does highlight the difference between roll and drag racing. At the pinnacle of roll racing you get... Well, a road car, kind of like the ones many of us already have modified and actually drive. Real drag cars on the otherhand can only drag and break down, they are dog shit at everything else. So people can continue to thump their chests over roll racing, but I'd never want to drive a powerglide in AZ, its all high speed freeway here. The rest of you who can't afford to gut, chute and cage your car will have to keep driving those rattling, noisy, vibrating wannabe hybrid drag abominations that are awful on the road and still run 11's, aka times the rest of the world gives zero fucks about (as you thump your chest).

#DragGang

 

[Twisted Tuning]

In reference to the DCT talk. What solutions are you looking for? Better internals? Different gearing? TCM tuning? Realistically speaking, as everyone knows and i agree, the AUTOs and DCT transmissions are going to be the BEST chance at the fastest 1/4 and 1/2 mile times simply because of the shifting and less drops in power through the shifting.

For the DCT i know Dodson setups seem to be holding the power very well to make a 9 second car. I don't necessarily think the issues are the trans themselves, but generally the cars setup outside that. These cars make the power to be a deep 9 second car. I feel, and i think I've said this before.....

Actually setting up a car properly with the right amount of suspension parts and things of that nature, will be a better way to shave off time. Lets be real, 90% of the higher power cars on this platform that have the power (from what i see) are running stock suspensions and/or coilovers. There is NO reason other than setup why this platform is not in the 9s after 10 years.

Case in point, Dodge Demon....makes less power and weighs more than the higher power cars on this platform. runs 9s out the box. Dodge purpose built that car for Drag (1/4 mile). There is no way around it. You either build a car for a specific purpose and be Amazing at it. or build a car for multiple uses and be OK at the multiple uses. That's how it works. and that's how it will always work.

Putting a glide in a car is not cheating. It's purpose building a car for a specific task. And that's racing across all venues of motorsports.

In the end, the best car for the job is going to always be a PURPOSE built car. to include 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, 1/8 mileand road racing cars.

 

[dyezak]

In reference to the DCT talk. What solutions are you looking for? Better internals? Different gearing? TCM tuning? Realistically speaking, as everyone knows and i agree, the AUTOs and DCT transmissions are going to be the BEST chance at the fastest 1/4 and 1/2 mile times simply because of the shifting and less drops in power through the shifting.

For the DCT i know Dodson setups seem to be holding the power very well to make a 9 second car. I don't necessarily think the issues are the trans themselves, but generally the cars setup outside that. These cars make the power to be a deep 9 second car. I feel, and i think I've said this before.....

Actually setting up a car properly with the right amount of suspension parts and things of that nature, will be a better way to shave off time. Lets be real, 90% of the higher power cars on this platform that have the power (from what i see) are running stock suspensions and/or coilovers. There is NO reason other than setup why this platform is not in the 9s after 10 years.

Case in point, Dodge Demon....makes less power and weighs more than the higher power cars on this platform. runs 9s out the box. Dodge purpose built that car for Drag (1/4 mile). There is no way around it. You either build a car for a specific purpose and be Amazing at it. or build a car for multiple uses and be OK at the multiple uses. That's how it works. and that's how it will always work.

Putting a glide in a car is not cheating. It's purpose building a car for a specific task. And that's racing across all venues of motorsports.

In the end, the best car for the job is going to always be a PURPOSE built car. to include 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, 1/8 mileand road racing cars.

For the DCT it’s all about control. The ability to control launch rpm, clutch engagement, line pressures, etc. the trans itself is extremely robust, and clutches exist already. We need an xHP style flash option....hell, just to pull and write the bin. We get that and the community can start parsing our that bin just like they did in the early MHD days.

 

[dyezak]

Oh, and the damn hard coded rear gear ratio in the f’n trans bin. Got to be able to change that.

 

[ninjacoupe]

I had a factory glide car. 1970 Chevy impala with a 350 2 barrel carb. It was awesome on the street! What is streetable is truly personally subjective. It is literally defined only by what someone is willing to put up with on a personal level. For me the ultimate Driver has to be a stick shift. I take too much enjoyment rowing the gears even if I give up something to the newer autos. I’m ok with it. I’m not trying to set records just wanna enjoy my car and that means giving up some points in one category (drag) and picking up points in another (fun). It all goes back to the same old question that holds true on any platform ever made....what are your goals for this build? Purpose built record breaker or maybe a fun daily or a sleeper street racer all have a different end product.

 

[langsbr]

#DragGang

That thing is STILL faster than a 4 cylinder Fox body Mustang.

I think the term 'cheating' needs to be defined here. I could be wrong, but I would think Tony means, and I would agree, that slapping a powerglide behind a high power 335 would be cheating if the only goal is to claim the quickest E.T. as a vendor. If vendor X has a fully prepped drag car and says, "look, our turbos can do 9s, while vendor Y is stuck in the 10s", then I would be less partial to vendor X.

In the same vein, while I know Tony has said he won't do stock motor testing any more, I hope he doesn't begin to make HP @ boost level claims using his motor. I think vendors should follow GAPP - generally accepted performance practices - i.e. HP @ boost claims should be on a stock head/cam motor. Figured that's a good enough term since everyone loves that freakin term when racing now. :barf

 

[fmorelli]

It isn't cheating as I see it because ... what are the rules? No rules = no cheating.

I wouldn't buy anything based on horsepower numbers because there are many ways to goose those numbers in a way I'd never want in my motor. It's not like this is resolved by quarter-mile times either. For the jockey wannabe engineers, what separates the men from the boys is the ability to have consistency and reliability. Any two-bit jockey can hit numbers once.

One can stick a glide in an E90, or a solid booster rocket to get it faster. What difference does it make to anyone else if they don't plan to do the same to their car?

Comparing "slips" is a false panacea that implies that the numbers, in and of themselves, are meaningful and even tell the story. Not even close. But hey ... it's fun for some ... and I'm sure for many vendors, plenty of suckers spend money based on the ignorance of following numbers.

As for "moving the platform" forward, what the hell is "the platform"? Define it, then we can talk about what advancement means.

Filippo

 

[Cheezy]

I mean the only rule in 1/4mile record is be the fastest there is. Its like young street racer guys saying my auto is cheating becausw they still have a manual. Get with what makes you faster and get over it.