Wire Tuck

bantam

Corporal
Nov 20, 2017
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Based on my preliminary look today, I think that the DME can be relocated by extending the injector and coil wires, as well as the wires to about 30 sensors that go to the dme (all on one connector).

the only thing is that I think you would need to cut one additional hole in the firewall. (Basically directly above the accelerator pedal)
 

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bantam

Corporal
Nov 20, 2017
127
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2009 335i
For any EEs out there, I am concerned about potential signal delays, and risk of interference etc for the ignition and fuel injector wires. I have a few questions:

1) should the wire gauges for the injector pairs or ignition signals change considering that the length is roughly being doubled from 3ft to 6ft?

2) would there be any value in adding shielding to the fuel injector twisted pairs?

3) should an effort be made to make these wires equal length to avoid differences in signal delay between cylinders?
 
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screaminfast

Sergeant
Feb 18, 2017
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Rochester NY
mikecentola.com
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07 SG/CR 335i / 17 X6 x35i
For any EEs out there, I am concerned about potential signal delays, and risk of interference etc for the ignition and fuel injector wires. I have a few questions:

1) should the wire gauges for the injector pairs or ignition signals change considering that the length is roughly being doubled from 3ft to 6ft?

2) would there be any value in adding shielding to the fuel injector twisted pairs?

3) should an effort be made to make these wires equal length to avoid differences in signal delay between cylinders?

Ah finally something I'm qualified to answer! As far as size for the wire, it needs to be the same or larger to prevent any voltage drop when adding any distance.

If the wires are twisted from the factory, any extensions should also be twisted to prevent any high frequency cross talk. Adding shielding is not necessary IMO, but wouldn't hurt if it gives you peace of mind.

As far as signal length goes, it's such a short distance and adding that small amount of distance shouldn't add any measurable amount of delay. If you look at the factory harness for the injectors, they already are unequal lengths.
 

bantam

Corporal
Nov 20, 2017
127
102
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2009 335i
Does the change to a larger gauge affect impedance or capacitance (or other property) in a way that would affect signal timing?
 

twinturbos

Sergeant
Jan 1, 2019
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E92 335i MT
Nice to see someone finally doing something about that mess that the factory harness is. I modified mine about a year and a half ago.. I provided an individual ground to each coilpack which also allowed me to nicely heat wrap the whole harness ( topmount problems lol ). Thing is Since then I have switched to the R8 coilpacks so now I will have to go over it againto eliminate a lot of useless extra wires. Thanks to anyone posting it's nice to see and great for ideas.
 
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screaminfast

Sergeant
Feb 18, 2017
256
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Rochester NY
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07 SG/CR 335i / 17 X6 x35i
Nice to see someone finally doing something about that mess that the factory harness is. I modified mine about a year and a half ago.. I provided an individual ground to each coilpack which also allowed me to nicely heat wrap the whole harness ( topmount problems lol ). Thing is Since then I have switched to the R8 coilpacks so now I will have to go over it againto eliminate a lot of useless extra wires. Thanks to anyone posting it's nice to see and great for ideas.

That's what I'm doing also, so I can eliminate the ground to the factory grounding posts. Each coilpack will have its own ground, but to a busbar instead.
 

The Convert

Captain
Jun 4, 2017
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Ah finally something I'm qualified to answer! As far as size for the wire, it needs to be the same or larger to prevent any voltage drop when adding any distance.

If the wires are twisted from the factory, any extensions should also be twisted to prevent any high frequency cross talk. Adding shielding is not necessary IMO, but wouldn't hurt if it gives you peace of mind.

As far as signal length goes, it's such a short distance and adding that small amount of distance shouldn't add any measurable amount of delay. If you look at the factory harness for the injectors, they already are unequal lengths.
Would anyone doing this want to match the twist per inch of the factory harness as well? How is the number of twists per inch calculated?
 

screaminfast

Sergeant
Feb 18, 2017
256
135
0
Rochester NY
mikecentola.com
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07 SG/CR 335i / 17 X6 x35i
Nice to see someone finally doing something about that mess that the factory harness is. I modified mine about a year and a half ago.. I provided an individual ground to each coilpack which also allowed me to nicely heat wrap the whole harness ( topmount problems lol ). Thing is Since then I have switched to the R8 coilpacks so now I will have to go over it againto eliminate a lot of useless extra wires. Thanks to anyone posting it's nice to see and great for ideas.

The longest factory wiring from injector to the first 12-pin junction connector is 32in and they are 0.75 mm2 (~.97722 mm diameter) metric wires according to the factory wiring diagrams. The electrical resistivity of copper is 1.72 x 10-8 Ω at 20c. That calculates out to the wire having a total resistance of 0.0187 Ω for the factory wiring. Doubling the length will increase the total resistance to 0.0374 Ω if you used the exact same wire. Because total resistance is inversely proportional to the area of the conductor, increasing wire size will lessen this effect. Even going to a true 18AWG conductor only adds 0.0170 Ω resistance. Likewise, using 16AWG would only add 0.0107 Ω resistance.

Let's step back and look at the driving circuit for the injectors, MOSFETS (Specifically the FDB14N30, a n-channel high-voltage style MOSFET in my MSD80). The electrical characteristics of this MOSFET has a maximum continuous Drain-Source Forward current of 14A. The piezo-style injectors peak at around 160V and ~8A current. If we take those numbers and put them into ohm's law, we get a resistance of 20 Ω for a single injector circuit. So adding 0.0170 Ω to 20 Ω would be your new total resistance. That is a 0.085% increase in resistance. Let's assume amperage is constant, using ohm's law again, we can calculate that it would take 0.136V extra to maintain 8A.

Considering the range of what the piezo injectors are designed to work within, I do not think there would be any measurable issues with extending the wires.

HOWEVER, with that said, typically the longer the wire in a PWM circuit, the more chance you have for EMI. Hence, the twisted pairs.


Would anyone doing this want to match the twist per inch of the factory harness as well? How is the number of twists per inch calculated?

Crosstalk is when a wire has current flowing through it, generating a magnetic field, which causes unwanted current to be generated in the wire next to it. Standard twist ratios vary wildly, but the factory wire has 49 twists in 31 inches, so roughly a 1.58:1 twist ratio. I would think wire diameter and insulation diameter play a big factor in twist ratio.

Additionally, we could shield the wires which definitely would help with more EMI rejection, but that also requires that the shield material be grounded somewhere so that it can act as a low-pass filter. Personally, I think twisting any/all the wires you can, wrap in some PET or PVC sheathing and have at it.
 

bantam

Corporal
Nov 20, 2017
127
102
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2009 335i
Thanks for the detailed look at this, I'm beyond thrilled to have that spot for the rear turbo cowl intake!

I really wanted to do that the first time that I did my water to air setup, but it seemed “insane”. now it seems crazy not to do it.
 
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bantam

Corporal
Nov 20, 2017
127
102
0
Ride
2009 335i
EOspeed or screaminfast,

do you happen to have the part numbers handy for the contacts that go in the following connectors:

1) Injector plug
2) coil plug
3) Injector to ECU plug
4) Coil to ECU plug

and then the appropriate contact crimp tool as well if you have it.
 
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screaminfast

Sergeant
Feb 18, 2017
256
135
0
Rochester NY
mikecentola.com
Ride
07 SG/CR 335i / 17 X6 x35i
EOspeed or screaminfast,

do you happen to have the part numbers handy for the contacts that go in the following connectors:

1) Injector plug
2) coil plug
3) Injector to ECU plug
4) Coil to ECU plug

and then the appropriate contact crimp tool as well if you have it.

1) no and I searched forever to find it. It's BMW marked.
2) I run PR coils and that is a Metri-Pack Pull to seat 150.2 style connector.
3) Injector to ECU looks like a standard 2x12 female pin connector.
4) Havent gotten that far yet.
 

bantam

Corporal
Nov 20, 2017
127
102
0
Ride
2009 335i
I think that TE basically makes all of these connectors and contacts, I have a sales rep that I work with for the defense side that is also a car guy, so perhaps he can help.

i also emailed Jake at Motiv, since the contacts that he used for the flex fuel are likely in the same family, just a different size.

I will report back with any info
 

screaminfast

Sergeant
Feb 18, 2017
256
135
0
Rochester NY
mikecentola.com
Ride
07 SG/CR 335i / 17 X6 x35i
I think that TE basically makes all of these connectors and contacts, I have a sales rep that I work with for the defense side that is also a car guy, so perhaps he can help.

i also emailed Jake at Motiv, since the contacts that he used for the flex fuel are likely in the same family, just a different size.

I will report back with any info

Defense side? What do you do? I own a firearms manufacturing company.
 

bantam

Corporal
Nov 20, 2017
127
102
0
Ride
2009 335i
I design wire harnesses and other interconnect solutions for devices that are used in mil aerospace applications. Sort of like the bridge between ME and EE departments, but ME by training.

If this was using mil spec connectors, finding the contacts would be simple!
 

pysical

Sergeant
Jun 16, 2017
471
108
0
Ride
2009 335xi E90
@EOSpeed & @screaminfast

My car recently caught fire and pretty much melted everything in the engine bay. all the wiring is shot and I am working on replacing it all. I just had a quick question if either of you know. So behind the DME box is a wiring harness that comes through the firewall and into the DME box. If I remember right it had a connector to the DME. Anyways, I had to cut this since it was all melted. I was wondering if either of you knew if the other end of that harness goes somewhere that I can unhook and replace? I was hoping that maybe it will go to the fuse panel or JBFF and I can just unplug and swap it out. I am hoping it is not a harness that makes its way to the rear of the car and I have to replace the entire length of the car harness.

Thanks!
 

bantam

Corporal
Nov 20, 2017
127
102
0
Ride
2009 335i
Does RealOEM have plug and socket part numbers ?

Not that I can tell(also matches what the local dealer told me) that the harness is sold as one piece only. 12517565201

I have depinned my connectors, and spent like 10 hours scouring the web for contacts that look similar. I ordered some contacts (all Bmw) will report back whether they fit or not.
 

iminhell1

Sergeant
Jun 17, 2018
419
207
0
I have had good luck using both Mouser and Digikey for pins. Their online chat is top notch. Just have a micrometer handy to aid them.
 

iminhell1

Sergeant
Jun 17, 2018
419
207
0
@EOSpeed & @screaminfast

My car recently caught fire and pretty much melted everything in the engine bay. all the wiring is shot and I am working on replacing it all. I just had a quick question if either of you know. So behind the DME box is a wiring harness that comes through the firewall and into the DME box. If I remember right it had a connector to the DME. Anyways, I had to cut this since it was all melted. I was wondering if either of you knew if the other end of that harness goes somewhere that I can unhook and replace? I was hoping that maybe it will go to the fuse panel or JBFF and I can just unplug and swap it out. I am hoping it is not a harness that makes its way to the rear of the car and I have to replace the entire length of the car harness.

Thanks!


Look on carpart for an engine, trans, etc locally. Odds are they'll have the whole car. Harnesses generally are junk and can be had on the cheap.
 

bantam

Corporal
Nov 20, 2017
127
102
0
Ride
2009 335i
my problem of contacts is 75% solved!

1)OEM ignition coil contact: 12527502933
2)OEM ignition coil to DME contact: 61138364838
3)OEM fuel injector contact: 12527545855
4)OEM fuel injector to ECU contact??? UPDATE: 12527522388

contacts that are not going to add value to your life:
61131393724, 61131393704, 61138364842

strain relief grommet that is going to be way too small for what you need: Yellow 61138366247

confirmed that they can all accept 16awg wire, with note that the fuel injector contact needs a very high quality and compact crimp to get down to the correct size to fully seat, I had to fiddle with mine a bit to make the crimp small enough to fit, going to look for a decent quality open barrel crimper. and they will all seat into their connectors, and appear to be a good fit on their respective ECU pins.

now to try and find the fuel injector to ECU contact...
 
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