VTT Double Barrel Review.

martymil

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I'm highly critical of products that don't measure up and got into many heated debates
and been locked out of threads because I step on a few to many toes on other forums.

But I know also to give credit where its due.

So a some came to me with a white box and upon opening it up I sighed, behold a shotgun kit which he wanted me to install and do a review on.

Install was a breeze and it took a few hrs but I was really taking my time to make sure it fit properly.

Looking at the fuel line kit and associated fittings I laughed and they where tossed in the bin promptly. I installed one of my upgraded lines and extended the LPFP sensor harness as it was too short.

The water lines where tossed as well as I had made a much simpler better quality setup, but really there was nothing wrong with it just that it wasn't up to my standard.

Had nothing to do with the quality of the hose, I just didn't like all the connections.

I used a brass barb connector to join the pump hose that normally goes to the plastic line to the new line which I routed under the engine and used connected it to the plastic connection I cut of the factory line to rejoin to the factory setup.

I never took any pics of this sorry.

So really the only thing I kept is the bracket, bolts, drive kit and the Parker fuel line.

Investigating the fuel line as i known for these to fail in the past, I found that the line is only rated fair for e85 and not rated for unleaded at all by Parker them selves.

So with a bit more investigation there is no better hose on the market available as of yet rated at 6000 psi working pressure but also a massive overkill for our cars but no such thing in my book.

Since he only wants to run 98 I was a little hesitant to install this line, but he said he will indemnify me of any responsibility if it fails and it will be all on him.

Fine so we fire up the beast using the relocated original pump and we start hearing grinding and ticking noises. WTF.

I quickly shut the car down and begin to investigate.

Everything looks good nothing is rubbing, WTF ?

We restart the car and we get a ticking whirring noise and occasional grind.

Get the stethoscope out and start poking around, Viola the HPFP pump is ready for the
parts bin in the sky. $#@! this is no good.

All off a sudden it stops making noise and its all good.

We go for a relaxed drive around the block and it all seems good but we know the pump is not long for this earth.

Re tune the car on the dyno and all seems good.

In less than a week I get a call the noise is back, not wanting to drive the car I tow it back to my shed and in mean time I already ordered a new pump just in case the old one failed which it did.

Not a good sign.

I install the new pump and she runs like a purring kitten.

We re tune the car and things are looking even better from a HPFP pressure side of things.

So his pump wasn't good in the first place.

Now the pump has been running for over 3 months with no issues and the only thing that has worried me seems to be holding up fine.

I'll give credit to Tony it seems he got it right now and things are looking good.

I would post some pics but there is much to see as its all under the car.
 

martymil

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martymil

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No issues what so ever, its so much easier than integrating pi because the dme automatically adjusts whats needed.

Trebila done the flash changes needed and was able to do it with no revisions.

Tony will send you a map for the aic controller to control the second pump.

Things aren't ideal here either, pressure plate is not coping very well with the power, I'm running 20's with street tyres.

No hot side pipe, baby rb classics only running 21psi, there are better turbos now.

I only go to the track to test the tunes its not to run fast times, our speed limits are a measly 110kph and I live in a nanny state so cops are arseholes
 

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Nov 5, 2016
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Marty, Trebila does not have a lot of settings right in your flash for this, I can tell just by looking at the log. The DME can auto adjust but only so far. When you switch to 100% E85, its going to be imperative to get those right. Most tuners understandably do not have them right as they are not used to tuning with these. Trebila locks his maps or I would say just send it to me, and I will fix it. These changes make all the difference in the world as far as dialing the car in with DI only, and if not done right you will think you hit a limit before you have actually hit a limit.
 

Bnks334

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Dec 1, 2016
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So, what is the scaling on the HPFP values?

I agree jb4 is a mess, but this is an easy one...

Hpfp value = "roughly 150psi" So, hpfp of 14-16 equals 2100-2400psi.

You really want to keep hpfp above 2100 when running DI only and even higher since compression acting against the injector is significantly greater on a tuned car (keep hpfp above 16 under high boost).

Trims are maxing out in places. Tune needs fuel scalars worked a bit, like Tony said.

Also, 4th gear AFR is looking a bit wonky bank to bank. Not sure if this is tuning related or if it's a hardware issue, but I'd look into it. Not sure why it's more important to some people to get jabs in than to point out a pretty big deviation like that...
 
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[email protected]

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Nov 5, 2016
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I agree jb4 is a mess, but this is an easy one...

Hpfp value = "roughly 150psi" So, hpfp of 14-16 equals 2100-2400psi.

You really want to keep hpfp above 2100 when running DI only and even higher since compression acting against the injector is significantly greater on a tuned car (keep hpfp above 16 under high boost).

Trims are maxing out in places. Tune needs fuel scalars worked a bit, like Tony said.

Also, 4th gear AFR is looking a bit wonky bank to bank. Not sure if this is tuning related or if it's a hardware issue, but I'd look into it. Not sure why it's more important to some people to get jabs in than to point out a pretty big deviation like that...
You can't see it since he does not have Average Ignition set to Bank 2 trims, but I can guarantee on the 4th gear shift bank 2 went into open loop for that first part of the gear, which is why you see bank 2 go almost dead lean, and bank 1 stay on track. There is a LOT of improvements to be made with proper tuning on the flash side. We have hooked up MArty with Justin (V8BAIT), and he will be ditching the JB in favor of flash only.

Here is a perfect example. This is our 170.4 Standing 1/2 mile run, you can see in 5th gear both banks going into open loop after the shift. Bank one recovered quickly, bank two takes a little longer. AFR's are separated, and as bank 2 drops back into closed loop the DME brings everything back in line.

http://www.datazap.me/u/vargasturbo...-run?log=0&data=3-16-17-23-24-25&zoom=423-618
 

Bnks334

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You can't see it since he does not have Average Ignition set to Bank 2 trims, but I can guarantee on the 4th gear shift bank 2 went into open loop for that first part of the gear, which is why you see bank 2 go almost dead lean, and bank 1 stay on track. There is a LOT of improvements to be made with proper tuning on the flash side. We have hooked up MArty with Justin (V8BAIT), and he will be ditching the JB in favor of flash only.

Here is a perfect example. This is our 170.4 Standing 1/2 mile run, you can see in 5th gear both banks going into open loop after the shift. Bank one recovered quickly, bank two takes a little longer. AFR's are separated, and as bank 2 drops back into closed loop the DME brings everything back in line.

http://www.datazap.me/u/vargasturbo...-run?log=0&data=3-16-17-23-24-25&zoom=423-618

Thanks, that's just more reason why tuning with JB4 is ridiculous and how these little nuances of how to get what you need out of it aren't documented well. Forgot the bank 2 trims could even be logged lol
 

08_335i

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Nov 3, 2016
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Not really sure how to take this review since the whole point of the double barrel was to run 100% E85 DI, and that wasn't even done here?
 

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Not really sure how to take this review since the whole point of the double barrel was to run 100% E85 DI, and that wasn't even done here?
That's like saying, not sure how to take people building a motor, and not running 1000WHP with it. One thing you always want to do with a fuel system is leave yourself head room. If he wants to run E60, and 500-600WHP DI only he is barely tapping into the potential without needing detonation inducing, and power robbing PI in the mix. Now if he decides to run 100% E85, and crank it up to 750WHP. Guess what he has to change to do so... Wait for it, wait for it...... Nothing.
 

BQTuning

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Not really sure how to take this review since the whole point of the double barrel was to run 100% E85 DI, and that wasn't even done here?

I think perhaps thats why Tony suggested for him to ditch the JB4, and go the route of flash only with V8Bait. Some tuners will have a better grasp of how to use the fueling tables with this type of setup as higher values dont mean better which can be misunderstood. Its best to allow the DME to see things "unmasked" .
 
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dyezak

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Not really sure how to take this review since the whole point of the double barrel was to run 100% E85 DI, and that wasn't even done here?

Wait...I was going to laugh with you then realized you're serious. Does that mean I now laugh at you? Or do I behave like an adult and try and explain it? I'll try and explain it:

The point of running the single or double barrel is to provide more fuel capacity when your HPFP runs out of capacity. You run out of pump capacity faster with e85 due to its lower energy content requiring (roughly) 30% more fuel volume per hp. So, e85 exaggerates the root cause, but isn't the real problem...the problem is running out of HPFP capacity.

If you take the OP's 1/4mi et/mph and run those through HP calculators you can see the OP is running about 600whp...well above what the stock fuel system can supply. So he had a choice....go with a single/double barrel HPFP or add on Port Injection.

He made a choice, used the product, put the power down, and gave a review....seems cut and dry to me. Could he have done this with the single barrel? Maybe, but it wouldn't have given him room to grow seeing as he is already at 600hp on e60 and the single barrel is rated for 600hp on full e85. If he was to turn the wick up any he would over run the single barrel....

So he chose the double barrel.

Now I can pretend I'm adult.
 

martymil

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Im only running e60 because the was tank was on empty, but you know there is fuel still left over like 15 or so litres from just above empty that's why e60

Next tank will be e78 and one after that e85, from past experience.

E60 or e85 no real difference unless running mega boost

I just wanted to simplify my fueling system and get rid of jb4 and pi is staying for looks
and for valve cleaning duties only.

I have two others runs that night had no issues except clutch could not hold the power

Im not aiming for mega power 21psi on my rb classics is enough for me and doing it of di only is a winner, pi is more trouble than its worth.
 
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martymil

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Got the stand alone going and all i can say is wow

Im only running 15psi and its an absolute silky smooth monster

There was something in my ikmos ecu that the pr coils weren't running to their full potential but justin fixed it. Wow did he fix it

Cant wait to see tbe byatch run 21 psi she is going to be insane
 
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