Oil Temperature problem

Vetracr

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I have an E89 N52 Z4 that I run at track events in Florida. The last event I ran it was 90+ degrees and I was seeing oil temps of 275 degrees F at the end of the straight. The engine etc. is completely stock. For reference My car has an added oil cooler. I used an N54 thermostat housing and plumbed a Setrab oil cooler in the same location as an N54 factory cooler. I even vented the inner fender well to get air flow through the cooler. How are you guys who track your cars keeping oil temps in a safe range?
 

Vetracr

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@[email protected] ... wondering if you have opinions given where you've been sniffing around? I know the N52 got electronic water pump and variable oil pump.

Filippo

The best I could find is that the oil pump volume flow is controlled for correct VANOS operation. I could find no info on the parameters that control the electric water pump. Both are designed for minimum power loss and improved economy as stated by BMW. Lack of information is one of the most frustrating things about working on a BMW. Does the the N54 have a variable flow oil pump and electric water pump?
 

Jeffman

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This brings up an interesting question. How would any mods to the oil system, such as an auxiliary radiator for oil cooling which or a lower-restriction oil filter (e.g., K&P Stainless) change oil pressure and/or volumetric flow rate, and thereby change VANOS operation?
 

Vetracr

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Sounds like the same description of the pumps for the N54

The N52 and N54 water pumps are very similar in form, fit and function. Both are controlled by the DME control module based on multiple inputs, water temp, rpm, vehicle speed, etc. The DME is connected to the water pump via a (BSD) bit serial interface line. The pumps have internal electronic circuitry that interprets the serial data into pump speed. A DC/AC inverter in the pumps then controls the motor current to increase or decrease the motor speed. The actual pump is an impeller as in a standard water pump. Because the BSD connects multiple engine components to the DME and has built in fault diagnostics there is no way to fake a signal to run the pump at a different speed than set by the DME. The only way to change the way the pump runs is to change the DME logic.
 
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Bnks334

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Do you have an automatic?

My n51 ran hot like that at the track even with a 19row oil cooler. Check your coolant temps... I bet they were 230f+. Look into #1 upgrading your radiator and #2 tuning the coolant tables to target a lower coolant temps at lower temps. The water pump target logic is driven by ambient thresholds.
 

Asbjorn

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I have done below upgrades to my N54 DCT, but haven't tested any of it yet. My next track session is this Friday, and then I can do some temperature logging. What is different about this setup is that both the DCT and engine oil coolers are connected to their respective oil pans and with individual pumps. In this way the extra cooling does not interfere with the oem oil pressure. I have also mounted push-pull fans on the oem oil cooler, but I only think this is helpful for drifting where speeds are lower.

There's also a sport cooling mode in MHD that I am looking forward to try.

clipboard07-jpg.jpg


I will try and post results here and in my build thread when done.
 

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I have an E89 N52 Z4 that I run at track events in Florida. The last event I ran it was 90+ degrees and I was seeing oil temps of 275 degrees F at the end of the straight. The engine etc. is completely stock. For reference My car has an added oil cooler. I used an N54 thermostat housing and plumbed a Setrab oil cooler in the same location as an N54 factory cooler. I even vented the inner fender well to get air flow through the cooler. How are you guys who track your cars keeping oil temps in a safe range?

How is your oil cooler configured? Airflow through any heat exchanger is paramount in terms of both volume and speed of flow. Do you have a mesh screen on the bumper duct? If so you really should remove it. It is hard to believe but air will pile up on the mesh and just shoot around the bumper and very little air will go through the cooler. I just got done helping a client setup their e46 M3 track car suspension at CMP. Their engine temp was over heating and we removed the mesh and it immediately dropped 15 Deg the next session. Note this was for the radiator so different situation but a good data point for you.

Also did you put the "oem" louvers on the backside? If so in my opinion they aren't big enough, you should make the exit hole area much larger.

Even the oil cooler itself can cause air to pile up and just spill around the front of the bumper. You really need to force air through it. Running a fan will solve this problem and also create rock blast protection for the cooling fins (since the mesh will be removed). @Asbjorn solution on his OEM cooler in my opinion is perfect.

Another data point... when the e90 335i first came out I ran one in the one lap of america. During testing we ran into oil temp overheating problems using the factory BMW oil. At the time I was running Motul 300v in the racecars so we tried it in this car. Temps dropped roughly 20 deg and we never ran into oil problems again. Note, this was on a stock motor. 300v is some pretty amazing stuff.

Conclusion, if it were me i'd get a small oil cooler fan and wire it up to a switch and when you are on the track just run it all the time. This way you know for a fact air is going through it and you get rock blast protection.

My opinions,
Barry
 

Vetracr

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How is your oil cooler configured? Airflow through any heat exchanger is paramount in terms of both volume and speed of flow. Do you have a mesh screen on the bumper duct? If so you really should remove it. It is hard to believe but air will pile up on the mesh and just shoot around the bumper and very little air will go through the cooler. I just got done helping a client setup their e46 M3 track car suspension at CMP. Their engine temp was over heating and we removed the mesh and it immediately dropped 15 Deg the next session. Note this was for the radiator so different situation but a good data point for you.

Also did you put the "oem" louvers on the backside? If so in my opinion they aren't big enough, you should make the exit hole area much larger.

Even the oil cooler itself can cause air to pile up and just spill around the front of the bumper. You really need to force air through it. Running a fan will solve this problem and also create rock blast protection for the cooling fins (since the mesh will be removed). @Asbjorn solution on his OEM cooler in my opinion is perfect.

Another data point... when the e90 335i first came out I ran one in the one lap of america. During testing we ran into oil temp overheating problems using the factory BMW oil. At the time I was running Motul 300v in the racecars so we tried it in this car. Temps dropped roughly 20 deg and we never ran into oil problems again. Note, this was on a stock motor. 300v is some pretty amazing stuff.

Conclusion, if it were me i'd get a small oil cooler fan and wire it up to a switch and when you are on the track just run it all the time. This way you know for a fact air is going through it and you get rock blast protection.

My opinions,
Barry

Barry,
Attached are pictures of my oil cooler install. I vented the fender well to get air flow. I shielded the flow so the air is aimed through the 19 row Setrab cooler and I opened the front fender blanking plate to let the air in. The mesh has a large percentage of open area. I'm running Castrol 5W-40 Euro formula oil. The cooler and lines also adds an additional quart of oil to the system. I've been studying the BMW "heat management system". Its quite complicated. The so called "oil pressure switch" that threads into the oil cooler is actually an oil pressure sender if the electrical schematics are to be believed. From what I've learned I'm not sure the oil temperature displayed on the dash is a true measurement or is an algorithm derived temperature from all the inputs to the DME. This is not uncommon on other cars (new Mazda Miatas). Does any know the answer?
Oil pump map.jpg

Shown above is the pressure map from the N52 oil pump. Its load and rpm dependent. putting out 5 bar (73psi) at 100% load above 4750 rpm. As I'm sure the oil pressure control algorithm uses the oil filter pressure sensor input any loss in pressure due to the addition of an oil cooler will be compensated for. I'm frustrated there is no water temperature gauge on my car. For all its prowess BMW can really screw up a lot of things, no water temperature gauge being one. I'm working on installing real gauges for water and oil temp and oil pressure. Still trying to figure out how!! Has anyone added these gauges and if so, how?
DSCN1835.JPG
DSCN1851.JPG
DSCN1864.JPG
 

fmorelli

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[...snip...]The cooler and lines also adds an additional quart of oil to the system. I've been studying the BMW "heat management system". Its quite complicated. The so called "oil pressure switch" that threads into the oil cooler is actually an oil pressure sender if the electrical schematics are to be believed. From what I've learned I'm not sure the oil temperature displayed on the dash is a true measurement or is an algorithm derived temperature from all the inputs to the DME. This is not uncommon on other cars (new Mazda Miatas). Does any know the answer?
@BQTuning - Adding Dimitri, thinking he may have some insight on this question.

I thought I had read this somewhere as well, that the gauge was hinky somehow. Page 63 of the Z4 manual has an asterisks by the title - "Engine Oil Temperature*" but I find no footnote or what have you.

Not to muddy the dialog, but on road course scenarios there is data you probably want that BMW has decided we shouldn't have on the road cars. I understand that even E46 coolant temp gauges were buffered. But with the new cars have electronically controlled tstats, the gauge would show fluctuations that could be at best unsettling to the average driver. Hence oil temp gauge - slow and steady ... and an idiot light for coolant temps.

As we know oil does not transfer heat as well (fast) as coolant, so that gauge is somewhat useful ... but ... - As a cheap solution, a bluetooth dongle and an android running the Torque app might help out (and data logging comes with it). Just thinking out loud.

Why am I rambling slightly off topic - oil's first function is lubrication, not cooling. Coolant's first and only function is cooling. So oil temp monitoring is useful but secondary (and yeah I get you have an oil temp problem).

Filippo
 
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BQTuning

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......From what I've learned I'm not sure the oil temperature displayed on the dash is a true measurement or is an algorithm derived temperature from all the inputs to the DME. This is not uncommon on other cars (new Mazda Miatas). Does any know the answer?

Definitely not the reality on the N54. Oil temp display is for oil temp which is different from ECT or Engine coolant temps. In the DME they have separate compensation tables. I would think its the same on the N52

From what it is understood, engine coolant helps dissipates (heat exchange) oils temps as the oil thermodynamics is not solely reliant on an oil cooler and oil thermostat.

Water pump speeds and radiator efficiency if increased helps lower oil temps and keep oil temps in check.

Now you said you use the N54 oil thermostat housing, I hope your not using the factor oil thermostat also ? If so, you need to get an oil thermostat delete. Your car natively does not use an oil thermostat, and you do no need it living in Florida.

http://www.burgertuning.com/sport_oil_cooler_valve.html
 

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Barry,
Attached are pictures of my oil cooler install. I vented the fender well to get air flow. I shielded the flow so the air is aimed through the 19 row Setrab cooler and I opened the front fender blanking plate to let the air in. The mesh has a large percentage of open area. I'm running Castrol 5W-40 Euro formula oil. The cooler and lines also adds an additional quart of oil to the system. I've been studying the BMW "heat management system". Its quite complicated. The so called "oil pressure switch" that threads into the oil cooler is actually an oil pressure sender if the electrical schematics are to be believed. From what I've learned I'm not sure the oil temperature displayed on the dash is a true measurement or is an algorithm derived temperature from all the inputs to the DME. This is not uncommon on other cars (new Mazda Miatas). Does any know the answer? View attachment 12528
Shown above is the pressure map from the N52 oil pump. Its load and rpm dependent. putting out 5 bar (73psi) at 100% load above 4750 rpm. As I'm sure the oil pressure control algorithm uses the oil filter pressure sensor input any loss in pressure due to the addition of an oil cooler will be compensated for. I'm frustrated there is no water temperature gauge on my car. For all its prowess BMW can really screw up a lot of things, no water temperature gauge being one. I'm working on installing real gauges for water and oil temp and oil pressure. Still trying to figure out how!! Has anyone added these gauges and if so, how?View attachment 12525 View attachment 12526 View attachment 12527

@Vetracr I know what you mean about BMW and the coolant gauge. @fmorelli, they have been buffering the coolant temp starting with the e36 cars. I've been banging my head on a wall ever since the e36 days and there is no temp gauge in the e90s, wtf...

I wouldn't worry about oil pressure with the added oil cooler. The cooler is the last part of the system so it wont affect oil pressure in systems that come before it enough to care.

Oil temp is measured from the oil level sensor. It is actually a multiple function sensor of level, oil condition, and temp. From the BMW TIS:

"The oil condition sensor consists of two cylinder capacitors arranged one above the other. The engine oil quality is measured by the lower, smaller capacitor. Two metal tubes are arranged one inside the other as capacitor electrodes. The engine oil is located between the electrodes as an electrical non-conductor (insulator). The electrical material property of the engine oil changes with increasing wear and dissipation of the fuel additive. The changed electrical material properties of the engine oil change the capacitance of the capacitor. This capacitance value is processed in the integrated electronic evaluation unit into a digital signal. The digital sensor signal is passed on as an indication of the engine oil quality to the digital motor electronics (DME). This actual value is processed in the DME for calculating the next engine oil service. The oil level is determined in the upper part of the sensor. This part of the sensor is located at the height of the oil level in the oil pan. As the oil level falls, the capacitance of the capacitor falls accordingly. This capacitance value is processed by the electronic evaluation unit into a digital signal and also sent to the DME. A temperature sensor has been fitted to the electronic evaluation unit to measure the engine oil temperature. The oil level, engine oil temperature and engine oil quality are measured continuously from ignition ON."

Back to the oil temp... I know the mesh has a large percentage of open area but I have seen it over and over cause air flow problems. Same with the louvers on the back. The turbulent air of the tire well doesn't help letting air escape either. To do it correctly and to truly know its right requires CFD which is out of the realm. Again if it were me I would put a fan on your cooler. This guarantees airflow through the cooler. I tell all my customers that road race, you need "belts and suspenders". A fan ensures you are covered in all scenarios such as drafting, hot days, grass build up from going off track, etc.

I haven't used it but give what @fmorelli suggested a try. Simple and plugs into your OBDII port: "As a cheap solution, a bluetooth dongle and an android running the Torque app might help out (and data logging comes with it)." However on another note, as far as gauges go... A long time ago I concluded that there is nothing that beats a real data acquisition system. You get real data right in front of your face as you drive with right in front of your face alarms coupled with telemetry data via GPS. You simply can't get that with OBDII logging or analog gauges.

My conclusion and opinion is still the same, I would go oil cooler fan and see what happens. $100 for a fan and simple install before going into anything else way more expensive and complicated.

I really hope this helps!

Cheers
Barry
 
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Vetracr

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Definitely not the reality on the N54. Oil temp display is for oil temp which is different from ECT or Engine coolant temps. In the DME they have separate compensation tables. I would think its the same on the N52

From what it is understood, engine coolant helps dissipates (heat exchange) oils temps as the oil thermodynamics is not solely reliant on an oil cooler and oil thermostat.

Water pump speeds and radiator efficiency if increased helps lower oil temps and keep oil temps in check.

Now you said you use the N54 oil thermostat housing, I hope your not using the factor oil thermostat also ? If so, you need to get an oil thermostat delete. Your car natively does not use an oil thermostat, and you do no need it living in Florida.

http://www.burgertuning.com/sport_oil_cooler_valve.html

From what I've researched I can find no reference as to how the dash oil temperature for the N52 or N54 is measured. Both engine heat management systems are the same withe exception of the N54 having a higher flow oil pump for the turbo and the external oil cooler. Please tell me where I can find reference where it describes where oil temperature display derives it input for the dash display. I'd sure like to know where temperature on display comes from.
 

Vetracr

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@Vetracr I know what you mean about BMW and the coolant gauge. @fmorelli, they have been buffering the coolant temp starting with the e36 cars. I've been banging my head on a wall ever since the e36 days and there is no temp gauge in the e90s, wtf...

I wouldn't worry about oil pressure with the added oil cooler. The cooler is the last part of the system so it wont affect oil pressure in systems that come before it enough to care.

Oil temp is measured from the oil level sensor. It is actually a multiple function sensor of level, oil condition, and temp. From the BMW TIS:

"The oil condition sensor consists of two cylinder capacitors arranged one above the other. The engine oil quality is measured by the lower, smaller capacitor. Two metal tubes are arranged one inside the other as capacitor electrodes. The engine oil is located between the electrodes as an electrical non-conductor (insulator). The electrical material property of the engine oil changes with increasing wear and dissipation of the fuel additive. The changed electrical material properties of the engine oil change the capacitance of the capacitor. This capacitance value is processed in the integrated electronic evaluation unit into a digital signal. The digital sensor signal is passed on as an indication of the engine oil quality to the digital motor electronics (DME). This actual value is processed in the DME for calculating the next engine oil service. The oil level is determined in the upper part of the sensor. This part of the sensor is located at the height of the oil level in the oil pan. As the oil level falls, the capacitance of the capacitor falls accordingly. This capacitance value is processed by the electronic evaluation unit into a digital signal and also sent to the DME. A temperature sensor has been fitted to the electronic evaluation unit to measure the engine oil temperature. The oil level, engine oil temperature and engine oil quality are measured continuously from ignition ON."

Back to the oil temp... I know the mesh has a large percentage of open area but I have seen it over and over cause air flow problems. Same with the louvers on the back. The turbulent air of the tire well doesn't help letting air escape either. To do it correctly and to truly know its right requires CFD which is out of the realm. Again if it were me I would put a fan on your cooler. This guarantees airflow through the cooler. I tell all my customers that road race, you need "belts and suspenders". A fan ensures you are covered in all scenarios such as drafting, hot days, grass build up from going off track, etc.

I haven't used it but give what @fmorelli suggested a try. Simple and plugs into your OBDII port: "As a cheap solution, a bluetooth dongle and an android running the Torque app might help out (and data logging comes with it)." However on another note, as far as gauges go... A long time ago I concluded that there is nothing that beats a real data acquisition system. You get real data right in front of your face as you drive with right in front of your face alarms coupled with telemetry data via GPS. You simply can't get that with OBDII logging or analog gauges.

My conclusion and opinion is still the same, I would go oil cooler fan and see what happens. $100 for a fan and simple install before going into anything else way more expensive and complicated.

I really hope this helps!

Cheers
Barry

Barry

I have an I Carly for my car and next time at the track I'm going to have my phone display oil temperature and water temperature. Id be curious to see if CAN bus data for oil temp matches dash display. I'll check out using fan but I had fits installing oil cooler because my car has headlight washer option where the mechanism goes right where you'd put a fan
 
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BQTuning

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From what I've researched I can find no reference as to how the dash oil temperature for the N52 or N54 is measured. Both engine heat management systems are the same withe exception of the N54 having a higher flow oil pump for the turbo and the external oil cooler. Please tell me where I can find reference where it describes where oil temperature display derives it input for the dash display. I'd sure like to know where temperature on display comes from.

Well, diagnostic tools and logging tools show separate parameters for oil temps and Engine coolant temps. The oil temp dash gauge is receiving its data from the DME the same as you would get using an OBDII tool. The ECT or Engine Coolant Temp parameter has nothing to do with the oil temp parameter they are completely separate on the DME.

Here is a screen shot of my ECT parameter running at normal operating temps. Oil temps is about 35°f higher on the dash display which would be identically the same temp if I was to monitor it via with any OBDII tool. I dont monitor it on MHD cause its already on my dash. When ECT starts hanging around oil temps its an indication the water pump is about to go, thats why I have it monitored in MHD.

720x1280.png.ced8b4dd7cca45fb8b4a2f5499ee8413.jpg
 
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From what I've researched I can find no reference as to how the dash oil temperature for the N52 or N54 is measured. Both engine heat management systems are the same withe exception of the N54 having a higher flow oil pump for the turbo and the external oil cooler. Please tell me where I can find reference where it describes where oil temperature display derives it input for the dash display. I'd sure like to know where temperature on display comes from.

@Vetracr... Are you asking what sensor the dash is using for oil temp or are you asking if the signal from the sensor is processed before being displayed on the dash?

Barry
 

Vetracr

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@Vetracr... Are you asking what sensor the dash is using for oil temp or are you asking if the signal from the sensor is processed before being displayed on the dash?

Barry
The answer is really both. The oil condition monitor in the pan and the oil filter housing have oil temperature sensors. Both signals from the sensors are read by the DME. The question is does the DME use the signal from an individual sensor to display the dash oil temp, and if so, which sensor? Conversely many manufacturers take inputs from temp, rpm, load and other inputs to the DME and an algorithm in the DME then calculates a temperature to be displayed on the dash.

Larry