New Twins - help me choose

morffius

Specialist
Jul 15, 2017
87
16
0
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135i
Hi all. Deciding between the VTT GC 2.0 and the MMP cast 1k. They are approx. the same price. It seems the MMP have the same turbo that is on the stage 3, but with the added cast manifolds. Both twin sets seem great. I am looking for ~600hp or as much as I can get without adding PI yet. The reason I am upgrading is I need to do my oil pan gasket and my turbos have wicked rattle. I haven't been able to find much of any info on people installing and running the MMP1k. I did read the reasons why PR just went with the GC 2.0s and they do make sense.
 

Jeffman

Major
Jan 7, 2017
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Curious how many miles on your car. Eventually I’ll be doing the same. I’m just 64K with my original OEM twins and so far / so good.
 
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morffius

Specialist
Jul 15, 2017
87
16
0
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135i
78k and going strong. I think the car was treated pretty well before I got it. I do still have 3 09 injectors which need to be replaced at some point. Once I need more fueling, I’m also trying to decide between shotgun and PI.

... I am leaning more toward the MMP at this point.
 

Jeffman

Major
Jan 7, 2017
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My research indicates shotgun is more difficult to install but easier to tune using only the DME. Not sure how many people have installed the shotgun, however. An advantage of PI is that it should keep your intake ports and valves clean, so no need to walnut blast anymore. Jake Spence prefers the BMP PI kit over the MMP and does a great comparison video
 
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morffius

Specialist
Jul 15, 2017
87
16
0
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135i
My research indicates shotgun is more difficult to install but easier to tune using only the DME. Not sure how many people have installed the shotgun, however. An advantage of PI is that it should keep your intake ports and valves clean, so no need to walnut blast anymore. Jake Spence prefers the BMP PI kit over the MMP and does a great comparison video

I watched the video a few days ago and it does seem like the BMP is the way to go. On the MMP facebook page there may be an upgraded MMP PI kit with Bosch injectors and OEM gaskets as well. No idea on price.
 
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Bumbleb

Private
Nov 3, 2016
37
-7
0
Florida
I have no skin in any company but the BMP kit is a known rip off of the Fuel-It kit. Why beat around the bush and just call up Fuel-It and thank them for being innovative and all of the time and money that they put into pushing the platform further and let them know you are going to buy a direct knock off of their PI kit.

They are understanding guys I'm sure they will keep us moving forward.

edit: oh yea I forgot there is a pissing match going on between this forum and that vendor. I thought it was resolved but obviously not
 
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matreyia

Major
Apr 19, 2017
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I have no skin in any company but the BMP kit is a known rip off of the ******* kit. Why beat around the bush and just call up ******* and thank them for being innovative and all of the time and money that they put into pushing the platform further and let them know you are going to buy a direct knock off of their PI kit.

They are understanding guys I'm sure they will keep us moving forward.

edit: oh yea I forgot there is a pissing match going on between this forum and that vendor. I thought it was resolved but obviously not

One thing that the Black Market Parts port kit has that gives comfort is the fact that their injectors are new, calibrated, and can be verified officially at the Bosch website. I do not know of any other vendor that has this verification process available. Thus I cannot risk putting in reconditioned injectors.

VT
 
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veer90

Lieutenant
Nov 16, 2016
1,000
764
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West Nyack, NY
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e90 335i 6MT
I have no skin in any company but the BMP kit is a known rip off of the ******* kit. Why beat around the bush and just call up ******* and thank them for being innovative and all of the time and money that they put into pushing the platform further and let them know you are going to buy a direct knock off of their PI kit.

They are understanding guys I'm sure they will keep us moving forward.

edit: oh yea I forgot there is a pissing match going on between this forum and that vendor. I thought it was resolved but obviously not

Dude the F-I company overcharges the crap out of everything they sell you should be glad someone finally undercut them with a quality PI kit. I was super stoked when competitors started coming out with Stage 2/3 LPFPs.
 
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Bumbleb

Private
Nov 3, 2016
37
-7
0
Florida
I can not believe you would openly say that you are stoked about ripping off the work of another company. I take it you feel that way about most of the things in your life and would prefer to buy cheap products rather than more expensive, quality and innovative products.

Its not my money or company but if you are going to use their technology then you should at least shoot them over a thank you letter for creating that opportunity to knowingly be ripped off so you can buy it for a lower price.
 

ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,199
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Charleston, SC
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N54/3 1er ///Mutt
Got a little off topic here...

If they didn't protect their design then there's nothing to quibble over and this is how open market works. I'm sure they got plenty of sales in before the copies started rolling out.

As a consumer, I would never write a letter thanking someone for designing product for me to purchase... That's insane.

I can not believe you would openly say that you are stoked about ripping off the work of another company. I take it you feel that way about most of the things in your life and would prefer to buy cheap products rather than more expensive, quality and innovative products.

Its not my money or company but if you are going to use their technology then you should at least shoot them over a thank you letter for creating that opportunity to knowingly be ripped off so you can buy it for a lower price.
 

Bumbleb

Private
Nov 3, 2016
37
-7
0
Florida
Once again I make no money here either way but I just do not understand being excited by knowing someone is having their design stolen. I will however agree with the fact that they should protect themselves.

Also please understand that this is your money and spend it any way you want and on any modification you choose. I am simply expressing my opinion and creating a dialogue.
 

veer90

Lieutenant
Nov 16, 2016
1,000
764
0
West Nyack, NY
Ride
e90 335i 6MT
I can not believe you would openly say that you are stoked about ripping off the work of another company. I take it you feel that way about most of the things in your life and would prefer to buy cheap products rather than more expensive, quality and innovative products.

Its not my money or company but if you are going to use their technology then you should at least shoot them over a thank you letter for creating that opportunity to knowingly be ripped off so you can buy it for a lower price.

There are only so many ways a port injection sandwich plate can be designed for this engine. Same with an LPFP, or an exhaust, intercooler, etc etc.

I don't buy into any of the "knockoff", "rip off", or "copycat" rhetoric the established vendors tend to throw around when someone comes out with a new product. More competitors = better prices = consumers win.
 

AZN54

Private
Nov 18, 2016
32
19
0
Mesa, AZ
I can not believe you would openly say that you are stoked about ripping off the work of another company. I take it you feel that way about most of the things in your life and would prefer to buy cheap products rather than more expensive, quality and innovative products.

Its not my money or company but if you are going to use their technology then you should at least shoot them over a thank you letter for creating that opportunity to knowingly be ripped off so you can buy it for a lower price.

Lets examine your point from another angle. When is the last time you sent a letter to Sony, Samsung, Sharp, etc., thanking them for their innovation in the TV industry? Is the plasma, LCD, LED, 4k TV sitting in your living room not some sort of direct knockoff from a competitors innovation and design? What about the computer, IPad, tablet, or phone you are reading this on? It's difficult to believe you (or anyone) only makes purchases from the company that brought the new technology to market.

As technology and products progress, new comers are bound to enter the market with similar offerings. As previously mentioned, there are only so many ways to design a plate style PI setup; you can't be upset (or "not believe") that consumers would opt for a less expensive alternative that offers the same, if not better, features. It is up to the original company to remain innovative enough to stay in business or at a minimum, remain relevant. This is not only great for you and the rest of the consumers as it drives prices down, but it's also great for the platform as it progresses it forward.
 

hassan_hamdan

Specialist
Aug 1, 2017
74
12
0
Ride
135i M package
@AZN54

Back to your original question,, when choosing twins its good that you know that you want 600whp, but the question is are you DD or track? Is there a way you want power to come on? for example im in the same boat, and was looking at Pure, and mmps, from what I found, and I could be wrong here, but Pure has a more linear power band, where mmp is more top end. MMP, GC, and Pure, are all great companies, each is different in how power comes on, thats what I would look at next before making your choice, me personally I DD it, and enjoy power on sooner than later, not really to worried about chasing high hp, but rather enjoy sprinted driving.

Hopes this helps.
 
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matreyia

Major
Apr 19, 2017
1,757
691
0
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335i e93
Lets examine your point from another angle. When is the last time you sent a letter to Sony, Samsung, Sharp, etc., thanking them for their innovation in the TV industry? Is the plasma, LCD, LED, 4k TV sitting in your living room not some sort of direct knockoff from a competitors innovation and design? What about the computer, IPad, tablet, or phone you are reading this on? It's difficult to believe you (or anyone) only makes purchases from the company that brought the new technology to market.

As technology and products progress, new comers are bound to enter the market with similar offerings. As previously mentioned, there are only so many ways to design a plate style PI setup; you can't be upset (or "not believe") that consumers would opt for a less expensive alternative that offers the same, if not better, features. It is up to the original company to remain innovative enough to stay in business or at a minimum, remain relevant. This is not only great for you and the rest of the consumers as it drives prices down, but it's also great for the platform as it progresses it forward.

You do not see any difference between a small company (some of which may be a single person trying to make a living making things for the n54 community) vs. titans like Apple or Samsung etc? Those companies have resources to address copyright infringements. The home company does not.

I would and have thanked people for their contributions to the community with their products. Propulsive Dynamics is one example. And you know what? The owner appreciated my gratitude.
 

Torgus

Major
Nov 6, 2016
1,901
1,367
0
Boston
Ride
ACF 6466 E92 + METH
Of the options you listed MMP. I wouldn't touch VTT with a cattle prod(well maybe once for fun).

FWIW FI was 1st to the market, charged a high price, and had almost zero competition for a long while. I am sure they did and still do, just fine. The key is you have to keep innovating. Wow someone knocked off a fuel product for an n54 sold last sold new in 2009(I know 335is were sold later but in limited qty). It's an old platform. As long as FI keeps innovating and making products for the newer motors(especially M motors) they will do just fine. No company can expect to sit back on their laurels and keep making the same margins and not innovate.

It makes perfect sense that someone looks at a product and says, "I can manufacture/build this for half the price, I can then sell at a 25% margin and still undercut the competition by 25%." it is called competition. Yes, competition sucks for those competing, but the consumer wins out in most cases.
 

morffius

Specialist
Jul 15, 2017
87
16
0
Ride
135i
@AZN54

Back to your original question,, when choosing twins its good that you know that you want 600whp, but the question is are you DD or track? Is there a way you want power to come on? for example im in the same boat, and was looking at Pure, and mmps, from what I found, and I could be wrong here, but Pure has a more linear power band, where mmp is more top end. MMP, GC, and Pure, are all great companies, each is different in how power comes on, thats what I would look at next before making your choice, me personally I DD it, and enjoy power on sooner than later, not really to worried about chasing high hp, but rather enjoy sprinted driving.

Hopes this helps.

I am more like you. I do DD the car and don't do much track except for fun drag racing here and there at the local strip. I do like more of a stock feel to the throttle. I was looking at Pures for a long time, but I felt like the potential of the MMP or VTT was much higher with the newer manifold designs and wanted to run the turbos in the middle range instead of overpowering them. Thanks for the advise.
 
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langsbr

Captain
Apr 5, 2017
1,197
685
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07 335i 6MT e90
If you don't intend on running in the 28+ PSI range, the MMP 1Ks or the GCs may be overkill. You get the benefit from the reduced backpressure at high boost levels. Granted, the MMPs should have the same or better spool, but if you have no intention of boosting that high, why bother. I have regular Stage 3s and am going to get the upgraded manifolds, and I have no "current' plans for PI, but I will likely get a shotgun setup eventually. Given that even stock Stage 3s can pretty much tax a stock block, you have to have a stong will to go all in on the 1Ks, or a hefty budget to use their capability.

I prefer the MMPs as they are stainless steel manifolds and turbine housings vs VTTs cast iron 2.0s. I know the D5S NI resist stuff is popular for turbo OEMS, stainless is offered as an upgrade for most turbo turbine housings, and the finish is much nicer.