help diagnose my track limp mode issues

berns

Corporal
Jan 15, 2018
175
264
0
Ride
'09 135i
Hi guys -- been in N54 world for many years, first with my E90 and now with my E82 track car.
The new 135i has been great, dead reliable and SUPER fast on track. I've been plagued with some heat issues, as you'd expect with two tiny turbos and hot SoCal track days. I've addressed quite a few of the normal problems with upgrades.

Log here: https://datazap.me/u/berno/motiv-2-107-ambient-willow-springs?log=1&data=3-6-14-15-21-23

Cooling -
CSF Radiator with factory diluted coolant / distilled water / water wetter
VRSF 7.5" Race FMIC
Custom twin Setrab 19-row oil coolers running in series, no thermostat, -10AN lines

Motor -
Simple full bolt-on stock turbo car with VRSF silicone stock location inlets, etc... N20 map sensor, upgraded NGK's, Stage 2 LPFP, the usual

Oil temps were a problem, going up in excess of 280* and I believe causing boost and power to cut, so I built my oil cooler kit and temps have improved dramatically. Even in yesterdays 107* heat, oil temps never went above 260*. Car could definitely use some improved ducting and probably hood ventilation, but I'm just not sure what's causing the issue at this point or if I've gone beyond a certain temperature threshold.

Unfortunately, my log times out on track, it seems, so I don't believe there's data of when this event happens, but basically, I'm full throttle, everything's fine, then I'll shift and almost experience a huge shift bog that just doesn't recover, then randomly at throttle, boost will come back on and it'll be gone by the next gear. At this point, clearly, my lap is finished, I'll do a cooldown and pit in.

Fortunately, for Time Attack events like yesterdays Round 2 with GTA at Big Willow, I only need one perfect lap. That turned out to be what I worked with and still came away with 1st place in Street RWD and fastest in Street class yesterday.

Any ideas what's going on? Would love to get to the bottom of this so I can go out and at least do 3-5 hot laps in heat. Meth is banned from most racing series, so that's not an option.

Thanks for the help and feel free to ask me any questions. Here's an old video from Big Willow, my first time there, so my line is shit. No video from yesterday, too hot to deal with cameras.


lPCjzzc.jpg


Ku2goyhl.jpg


Eb1DKXzl.jpg
 

ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,135
527
0
Charleston, SC
Ride
N54/3 1er ///Mutt
Looks like your timing isn't happy as the temps climb, though there are corrections fairly consistently. Also, what's going on with your boost targets? Do you have it limited to ~16? I'm seeing 12-16 vs target 21ish. Bank1 vs Bank2 WGDC is out of sync, bank 1 looks good, bank2 looks like it's working hard. Not maxing out though. LPFP is barely hanging in there, not dipping below 50 but it's not happy either.
 

berns

Corporal
Jan 15, 2018
175
264
0
Ride
'09 135i
Sup Berns

On my phone but looks like lpfp might need swapping

Hey dude! Nice to see you on here. Not sure why the LPFP wouldn't be happy. It's a Fuel-It Stage 2 bucket. Was running 91 oct with a few gallons of 100. I do get a shadow code for 2AAF - Fuel Pump Plausibility -- Not normal?

Looks like your timing isn't happy as the temps climb, though there are corrections fairly consistently. Also, what's going on with your boost targets? Do you have it limited to ~16? I'm seeing 12-16 vs target 21ish. Bank1 vs Bank2 WGDC is out of sync, bank 1 looks good, bank2 looks like it's working hard. Not maxing out though. LPFP is barely hanging in there, not dipping below 50 but it's not happy either.

Timing is tough, I guess it should be lower in the tune. Not sure if this log is from when I mixed a few gallons of 100 in but I usually just run on pump 91 since I don't have a trailer or room for 5-gal jugs with E85. I have these logs as well from a much cooler day at Big Willow a couple months ago.

https://datazap.me/u/berno/log-1524712868?log=0&data=3-5-6-15-21-23
https://datazap.me/u/berno/log-1524711689?log=2&data=3-14-23

I replaced all my vac lines going from the booster, over the valve cover to the canisters, to the wastegates and the solenoids. Don't think there is a leak anywhere but a 30FF code was popping up consistently every session at the last track day, just not yesterday. Could this be because actual boost is so far below target, rather than actually being a boost leak? Bank 2 is rear turbo, correct? Wonder why they'd be out of sync.

Thanks for the help guys.
 

frontside0815

Corporal
Nov 9, 2016
126
48
0
Germany
Hey Berns,

we already had some Chat @1addicts. Since you helped me with a few questions i will try to help you :):

Tbh you map Looks really awful: Your Boost and Load Target is nowhere near the boost your car is making which is a no-go in my opinion. Also your Timing corrections are a Little bit too much for such low timing- you should try a better fuel with more octane if possible, maybe changing out plugs and coils (how old are they and what plugs do you have?) ....

Concerning your bog: In the end of the run you hit torque limiter 512 almost everytime you go WOT, which should/can be the reason for your Bog.

What also Looks a bit strange is your LPFP:
Usually it shouldnt dive under 50 psi, yours is above it but you usually see quite a big fluctuation in the pressure and yours is a flat line.... Since your Trims and AFR is totally fine, in my opinion it doesnt do anything atm but you should Keep an eye on it and upgrade to a stage 2 or something else when you get Problems or see it dipping under 50.

I dont get what @ShocknAwe says: The WGDC can´t be different bankwise, since the DME is Setting both Banks totally identical! Both Wg´s are 100% similiar. Altough your WG´s fluctuate a bit too much during a pull, what i think is also map related.

Don´t know which map it is, but in my opinion just try to Flash MHD Stage 1+ or go back to your tuner and let them remap the car. The limiter is 0815 Tuning afaik. At least try logging Stage 1+ from MHD and upload it once again to see if it gets better.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: berns

R.G.

Lieutenant
Nov 17, 2016
669
325
0
Henderson, NV
Ride
E92 335, F10 M5
You shouldn’t get fuel plaus code if not running ethanol. Usually triggered by pump dipping below a certain threshold. I’m sure the set up is fine but the walbro inside the tank set up should be swapped out.
 

ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,135
527
0
Charleston, SC
Ride
N54/3 1er ///Mutt
Before talking about tuning I'd like to see a log from stock map.

@frontside0815 WGDC off by over 30% per bank, though consistent within each bank. I'd need to look at it again to see if the timing was bank restricted. What it tells me is that the ECU is opening the solenoid a lot more on bank 2 in order for it to keep up with bank 1 pressure. Not necessarily the main concern here, but an interesting data point to me.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: berns

R.G.

Lieutenant
Nov 17, 2016
669
325
0
Henderson, NV
Ride
E92 335, F10 M5
Yo,
Just looked at this on my desktop

Shocky, Frontside, take a look at the lpfp LOL
Sensor has to be bad
No F'ing way it's static like that.
Who knows what other issues that's causing but I'd 100% start there and then take another look at timing/WG/AFRs etc
 
  • Agree
Reactions: berns

ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,135
527
0
Charleston, SC
Ride
N54/3 1er ///Mutt
Agree that it's probably a bad sensor. 51% static. Can a fixed lpfp be set in tunerpro? I' still like to see a stock log.

Yo,
Just looked at this on my desktop

Shocky, Frontside, take a look at the lpfp LOL
Sensor has to be bad
No F'ing way it's static like that.
Who knows what other issues that's causing but I'd 100% start there and then take another look at timing/WG/AFRs etc
 

frontside0815

Corporal
Nov 9, 2016
126
48
0
Germany
Before talking about tuning I'd like to see a log from stock map.

@frontside0815 WGDC off by over 30% per bank, though consistent within each bank. I'd need to look at it again to see if the timing was bank restricted. What it tells me is that the ECU is opening the solenoid a lot more on bank 2 in order for it to keep up with bank 1 pressure. Not necessarily the main concern here, but an interesting data point to me.

Could you please Show me a screenshot?
What you describe is not possible! THe ECU can not control the two solenoids different! They are both controlled 100% exactly all the time.

Like i wrote the LPFP is strange, didnt see something like that yet.... But that whole log and map is strange, i would just go and Flash stage 1 + it is by far better than this one!
 

matreyia

Major
Apr 19, 2017
1,746
685
0
Ride
335i e93
My oil temps never go above 230°F

I have the Dinan Oil cooler. 335i n54.



Hi guys -- been in N54 world for many years, first with my E90 and now with my E82 track car.
The new 135i has been great, dead reliable and SUPER fast on track. I've been plagued with some heat issues, as you'd expect with two tiny turbos and hot SoCal track days. I've addressed quite a few of the normal problems with upgrades.

Log here: https://datazap.me/u/berno/motiv-2-107-ambient-willow-springs?log=1&data=3-6-14-15-21-23

Cooling -
CSF Radiator with factory diluted coolant / distilled water / water wetter
VRSF 7.5" Race FMIC
Custom twin Setrab 19-row oil coolers running in series, no thermostat, -10AN lines

Motor -
Simple full bolt-on stock turbo car with VRSF silicone stock location inlets, etc... N20 map sensor, upgraded NGK's, Stage 2 LPFP, the usual

Oil temps were a problem, going up in excess of 280* and I believe causing boost and power to cut, so I built my oil cooler kit and temps have improved dramatically. Even in yesterdays 107* heat, oil temps never went above 260*. Car could definitely use some improved ducting and probably hood ventilation, but I'm just not sure what's causing the issue at this point or if I've gone beyond a certain temperature threshold.

Unfortunately, my log times out on track, it seems, so I don't believe there's data of when this event happens, but basically, I'm full throttle, everything's fine, then I'll shift and almost experience a huge shift bog that just doesn't recover, then randomly at throttle, boost will come back on and it'll be gone by the next gear. At this point, clearly, my lap is finished, I'll do a cooldown and pit in.

Fortunately, for Time Attack events like yesterdays Round 2 with GTA at Big Willow, I only need one perfect lap. That turned out to be what I worked with and still came away with 1st place in Street RWD and fastest in Street class yesterday.

Any ideas what's going on? Would love to get to the bottom of this so I can go out and at least do 3-5 hot laps in heat. Meth is banned from most racing series, so that's not an option.

Thanks for the help and feel free to ask me any questions. Here's an old video from Big Willow, my first time there, so my line is shit. No video from yesterday, too hot to deal with cameras.


lPCjzzc.jpg


Ku2goyhl.jpg


Eb1DKXzl.jpg
 

ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,135
527
0
Charleston, SC
Ride
N54/3 1er ///Mutt
Could you please Show me a screenshot?
What you describe is not possible! THe ECU can not control the two solenoids different! They are both controlled 100% exactly all the time.

Like i wrote the LPFP is strange, didnt see something like that yet.... But that whole log and map is strange, i would just go and Flash stage 1 + it is by far better than this one!

Now I wonder if I'm crazy. Went back to look for it and WGDC matches as it should bank to bank. My mistake. Can't even figure out what it was that was selected, nothing matches a 30% delta.
 
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frontside0815

Corporal
Nov 9, 2016
126
48
0
Germany
That log Looks way better. But it´s older, right?
I am 99% sure the sensor won´t help with your "bog". Almost sure it´s just the map...
But your sensor is shot, so changing it out is a good idea- i would think the flat line is an value which the dme uses if it doesnt get a Signal from the lpfp sensor.
 

berns

Corporal
Jan 15, 2018
175
264
0
Ride
'09 135i
That log Looks way better. But it´s older, right?
I am 99% sure the sensor won´t help with your "bog". Almost sure it´s just the map...
But your sensor is shot, so changing it out is a good idea- i would think the flat line is an value which the dme uses if it doesnt get a Signal from the lpfp sensor.

That log is definitely older and not under race conditions, and clearly on a very cool, ideal turbo night with 65* ambient or lower. The "bog" is really kind of a rolling limp mode. It feels like a protective failsafe and I'm almost certain it has something to do with ambient temp. I can see the tune isn't ideal, however, I've been running it problem free on this car at almost every track day for the last 4 months. Once I got oil temps under control, I was able to do full sessions at Buttonwillow in 90* heat, but the jump to 107* at the track this weekend seemed to make it impossible. Come to think of it, I did run with my engine cover on -- curious how big an effect that has on engine temps.

There was another 135 racing with me this weekend and he apparently suffered the from the same symptoms. Different tune.

Wondering if there is a list of the power-decreasing thresholds for oil, coolant, IAT or maybe ambient temp? This would help diagnose the issue.
 

ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,135
527
0
Charleston, SC
Ride
N54/3 1er ///Mutt
honestly before getting into the weeds on oil coolant iat specifics etcetc, you need to get to a point where your timing is clean on a low boost log outside of race conditions.
 

berns

Corporal
Jan 15, 2018
175
264
0
Ride
'09 135i
honestly before getting into the weeds on oil coolant iat specifics etcetc, you need to get to a point where your timing is clean on a low boost log outside of race conditions.

Copy. I'm on it. Really appreciate the help. I've spent so much time dialing in the chassis and suspension that I've been a little lazy on making sure the motor is happy. Only has 66k on it, and I'd like it to last for a while.
 

frontside0815

Corporal
Nov 9, 2016
126
48
0
Germany
I say it once again: Just Flash MHD Stage 1+. It is far better than what you have on your car now, i promise.
Doesnt matter if this map was running good or not, car can feel good when logs are totally garbage and engine isnt happy...

I really don´t think your bog or limp mode has something to do with temperatures:
The car will go into limp mode with the following values:

Oil Temp: 311 Fahrenheit, but it will reduce power above 293 Fahren
Water Temp: i think around 280 Fahrenheit

IAT: above 122 Fahren the DME reduces Timing to Keep the engine happy (some Tuners manipulate those tables, not a very good idea IMO).

Ambient: There isn´t any limp mode because of ambient temp... Doesnt matter as Long as the other temperature Parameters are fine.

When doing WOT the ECU Targets a water temp of 194 Fahren, when not giving it full throttle it Targets higher temps to be more efficient. You can Flash track map coolant mode in MHD, then the target ist 194 all the time, which helps in keeping Temperature low. I dont know the exact values concerning water temp when it Triggers limp mode, but ususally our 1 series dont have Problems with water Temperatur, the 335i AT have big Problems because the Transmission is also in the circuit of the engine.

I didn´t experienced any limp mode ever, also without an additional oil cooler and i had oil temps as high as 302 Fahrenheit (not sure how high the water was).

Why don´t you just try and Flash stage 1 (+)? takes 2minutes and then we can see what will happen. Don´t know if it will fix your Problems, but you car will be more happy that is 100% sure.
 

berns

Corporal
Jan 15, 2018
175
264
0
Ride
'09 135i
I say it once again: Just Flash MHD Stage 1+. It is far better than what you have on your car now, i promise.
Doesnt matter if this map was running good or not, car can feel good when logs are totally garbage and engine isnt happy...

I really don´t think your bog or limp mode has something to do with temperatures:
The car will go into limp mode with the following values:

Oil Temp: 311 Fahrenheit, but it will reduce power above 293 Fahren
Water Temp: i think around 280 Fahrenheit

IAT: above 122 Fahren the DME reduces Timing to Keep the engine happy (some Tuners manipulate those tables, not a very good idea IMO).

Ambient: There isn´t any limp mode because of ambient temp... Doesnt matter as Long as the other temperature Parameters are fine.

When doing WOT the ECU Targets a water temp of 194 Fahren, when not giving it full throttle it Targets higher temps to be more efficient. You can Flash track map coolant mode in MHD, then the target ist 194 all the time, which helps in keeping Temperature low. I dont know the exact values concerning water temp when it Triggers limp mode, but ususally our 1 series dont have Problems with water Temperatur, the 335i AT have big Problems because the Transmission is also in the circuit of the engine.

I didn´t experienced any limp mode ever, also without an additional oil cooler and i had oil temps as high as 302 Fahrenheit (not sure how high the water was).

Why don´t you just try and Flash stage 1 (+)? takes 2minutes and then we can see what will happen. Don´t know if it will fix your Problems, but you car will be more happy that is 100% sure.

I hear you loud and clear and I appreciate the info. I will flash the stage 1 map back to the car.
 

rac

Corporal
Nov 14, 2016
234
129
0
Australia
Ride
135i ST
Wondering if there is a list of the power-decreasing thresholds for oil, coolant, IAT or maybe ambient temp? This would help diagnose the issue.

Don't forget calculated exhaust temp / cat protection. That cap needs to be raised for track work.