Tig welding 4047 on block

[shushikiary]

I have a built motor which I found a hole in the block that needs to be fixed. Builder wants to weld it, but I'd have to pull the motor and take it to them for them to weld it, so I'm looking for a tig welder in the denver area that is willing to weld the block on an N54 for me.

From reading, the 30% silicon 70% aluminum alloy that is alusil doesn't like to be welded without having issues with being brittle at the edge of the weld puddle due to silicon build up there. Thus the suggestion to use a 4047 filler rod as it's 12% silicon. It's not a big hole, just enough that oil runs out of it if the block is not under vacuum.

So if anyone knows a welder that is willing to do this, I'd like their info. Builder is not willing to replace the block under warranty, even though I agree that's what should be done when you drop this much money for a block... lets not get into that.

 

[r0nd3L]

I don't have any feedback for welding, but wow that is sad coming from the builder to not warranty it properly.

Do you have photos showing where the hole is?

 

[shushikiary]

Yes I do, and oil comes out of it if there is no vacuum on the block. It's kind of hard to get to where the hole is because it's right where the timing hole is for inserting the pin to hold the flywheel still while you time it, but you can watch oil puddle on the rib right there by looking down from the top while the engine is running if you remove vacuum from the block.

This has given me a pretty clear idea of how "good" the warranty on the block is, aka I'm on my own.

 

[fmorelli]

Denver area ... you might look toward Colorado Springs in your general research. There was traditionally a lot of manufacturing/aerospace work down there and you might find your wizard there.

Any idea what the story is on how the hole got there? Seems a bit strange, but strange is often the result of lack of info. Just curious ... Good luck!

 

[shushikiary]

I'm not sure how it got there. I transported the motor, it wasn't shipped, so I drove it back to my place in the back of my truck so I know it was taken care of. I did the install, and everything was great until I got some boost on the motor (only 3 psi under 3k rpm). This reduced the vacuum on the block and allowed the oil to come out. Originally I thought it was a rear main seal leak.

They did reimburse me 1/2 of what would have been the cost to pay an indy to replace the rear main seal, but after doing that work it turned out not to be that and so I tracked it down more, that's when I found the hole. It's not large, it's rather small. All the data seems to point to it being there when I drove away with the block, as the only thing I worked on in that area is installing the motor mount "wing" that bolts to the block and has the hole in it for the motor mount stud. The leak is pretty easily created by removing vacuum from the block by unplugging the vacuum side PCV.

I'm trying to avoid a bunch of drama as it's not worth my time, I also had to helicoil 3 bolt holes and there is either casting error or a crack in the block where the coolant port is (the main big oval one). Then it was leaking some coolant from the head gasket from under the intake manifold, which the manufacturer told me to tighten the head nuts, but to do that I have to pull the camshaft ledges. He stated that ARP's website says that needs to be done with some head gaskets. The good news is with enough heat cycles the coolant leak seems to have stopped.

The head is from head games and they did a great job.

I'd rather expect more than this when I drop 15k for a motor.

It seems like no matter which motor manufacturer you pick they all have some bad reviews out there... makes me want to build it my self if there's a next time. Then I can time cert the studs, work with CSS for the closed deck my self, etc. It's just a lot of tracking down good machine shops to do the work, etc.

If something happens to this motor I'll have to think hard about going to a B58.

 

[martymil]

Not knowing where it is its hard to suggest something.

You could always drill and tap it and use thread sealer with a block off like on the head ports.

 

[Torgus]

It seems like no matter which motor manufacturer you pick they all have some bad reviews out there...

If something happens to this motor I'll have to think hard about going to a B58.

Seriously.

I think the only person I have not heard a negative review about is Billiam Mason the guy who built the Motiv engine. But a fully worked engine & head w/ cams I think is like 18.5k or at least that was the ballpark for the motiv engine iirc.

 

[shushikiary]

Here are some photos that will give you an idea.

 

[nyt]

With all the contamination, that's not going to be an easy fix, and you may not even know the full extent of the crack. Whoever put this engine together should be replacing the block for you. You can try to patch over it, but you may just end up playing wack-a-mole.

 

[shushikiary]

Yea that's my opinion on it, but the builder has specifically stated to me in email that they will only weld it if I bring it to them, which is a waste if I can just weld it here.... he also suggested I just JB weld it... I'll let that speak for its self. It's one thing if this was a junk yard motor and I was on a super cheap budget, its another when you put down more money than a used car for the motor.

So I'm kind of up a creek here.

If I do end up having to go to another builder to have another block built (the head is good), then I'll likely tell everyone the name of the builder and post the full email chain just so people can get an idea of what went down.

Here's the other thing I was talking about when I said that the coolant port was cracked:

 

[fmorelli]

Looks like tool marking or something hit and scraped hard against it.

Actually I would consider trying JB Weld (not JB Qwik). Clean the area well. Not sure what you have to lose, and it's easy enough to do.

I used to be involved in endurance racing (4 to 24 hour racing) - you'd be surprised what JB Weld can do.

 

[Torgus]

Looks like tool marking or something hit and scraped hard against it.

Actually I would consider trying JB Weld (not JB Qwik). Clean the area well. Not sure what you have to lose, and it's easy enough to do.

I used to be involved in endurance racing (4 to 24 hour racing) - you'd be surprised what JB Weld can do.

I was just going to say JB Weld is not a horrible idea. Granted it is a bandaid but I have seen many bandaids work longer than they should.

My worry is how do you pierce the block and not cause a crack or hairline fracture. Granted I am far from an expert in this.

 

[pysical]

How built is this motor? Is it possible to just pull it and moving everything into another block?

 

[Torgus]

Yea that's my opinion on it, but the builder has specifically stated to me in email that they will only weld it if I bring it to them, which is a waste if I can just weld it here.... he also suggested I just JB weld it... I'll let that speak for its self. It's one thing if this was a junk yard motor and I was on a super cheap budget, its another when you put down more money than a used car for the motor.

So I'm kind of up a creek here.

If I do end up having to go to another builder to have another block built (the head is good), then I'll likely tell everyone the name of the builder and post the full email chain just so people can get an idea of what went down.

Here's the other thing I was talking about when I said that the coolant port was cracked:

So how has your experience been with Ghassen so far?

The crack looks to extend below as well, very far. Exactly would I would think a stress fracture could look like. Again am no expert.

 

[shushikiary]

It's a closed deck insert with ARP studs, so not so easy to move anything over. Besides to do it right the rings and crank bearings have to be setup for each specific motor. Very tight tolerances.

Ah Torgus, you either have good intuition or you looked up some of my previous posts.

I should have had them use my block as the block to build instead of trusting them to pick one from their pile... though my block did have 3 low compression cylinders, and a broken vanos sprocket.

When I picked the motor up from them one guy in the shop (I think he was their newest employee) mentioned something about them struggling to hold the motor still when they timed it and tightened the vanos sprocket bolts as well as the main crankshaft front bolt.

If I was going to make an educated guess the marks look very much like the end of the tool used to insert into the hole to hold the flexplate/flywheel still while timing, and I bet they slipped trying to hold the flexplate/flywheel still and it likely then twisted and smashed the alignment tool into the block causing the issue.

But I suspect we will never really know.

 

[martymil]

I would drain the oil.

Clean thoroughly with brake cleaner.

Heat the area with a heat gun and hit it with brake cleaner again

Repeat it a few times.

Then apply jbweld or equivalent.

That block looks compromised

 

[STE92]

Really sounds like they didnt have the right tools for the job, not sure about adding heat to that block. I would do the JB weld first and see, suck with this shop that wont warranty their work. Obvious issue created by them.
Hope you are able fix it

 

[nyt]

Yea that's my opinion on it, but the builder has specifically stated to me in email that they will only weld it if I bring it to them, which is a waste if I can just weld it here.... he also suggested I just JB weld it... I'll let that speak for its self. It's one thing if this was a junk yard motor and I was on a super cheap budget, its another when you put down more money than a used car for the motor.

So I'm kind of up a creek here.

If I do end up having to go to another builder to have another block built (the head is good), then I'll likely tell everyone the name of the builder and post the full email chain just so people can get an idea of what went down.

Here's the other thing I was talking about when I said that the coolant port was cracked:

That block is trash. I can't imagine that getting reused for a built engine. I'd lawyer up.

@GhassanAutomotive wtf?

 

[fmorelli]

Really sounds like they didnt have the right tools for the job, not sure about adding heat to that block.

Heat gun not torch. It's a good idea.

 

[RuskiRacer]

I know my buddy in Denver has a good core longblock and I have a spare longblock and a spare shortblock. Your just gonna run into issues down the road with the casting further cracking from heat and stress. @GhassanAutomotive is the worst engine builder in the county and I don't think its even close. They put good stuff in his personal car to make everyone think there gonna get a product of similar quality. Everytime someone in mn says there gonna send there block to ghassan I laugh my ass off and say have fun.