MotiveReflex On N55 (F22)

[Dumaurier7]

I know the Reflex is all the rage with the N54 guys but is anyone successfully using it on the newer N55 platform? I recently began the tuning process on my M235 which has a custom big turbo (BW8474) and port injection, twin Walbro 450's etc. my tuner is advising against PI on anything other than 93-95 pump, anyone have any thoughts or experience on this?

 

[houtan]

who is your tuner?

 

[Dumaurier7]

I'd prefer not name the person on here.

 

[houtan]

Ok.

What your tuner is saying makes zero sense to me. I have been running e50 and pi for a few years using what is now an archaic controller (SS AIC) and have zero issues. That was the point of pi, to be able to run higher ethanol blends.

 

[Dumaurier7]

Ok.

What your tuner is saying makes zero sense to me. I have been running e50 and pi for a few years using what is now an archaic controller (SS AIC) and have zero issues. That was the point of pi, to be able to run higher ethanol blends.

To be fair he did say pump gas but I sorta asumed it would work the same for all fuels, he explained that the "fuel mass" must remain within certain limits, don't know if this specific to the F series DME only (?)

 

[ap485]

You will run on octane limitations on just pump gas so, you will need more octane in the form of race gas, E85 or meth to overcome that issue.

 

[Torgus]

It sounds like some mixed messages are going on? What tuner only recommends PI on pump gas? Are you sure he is not saying PI is NOT required on pump gas? Usually on pump you don't need PI unless you have a built motor and a big ass turbo. Even then you are leaving power on the table not running E85.

The reason you go PI is for E85 for 99% of people. E85 requires 30% more fluid than pump gas to make the same HP, the advantage is the very high AKI or octane as it basically acts like racegas but you can get it at the pump. The stock HPFP is a limitation especially when you need to push 30% more gas through it. You can get by that limitation by overspinning the HPFP(I think it's a bad idea) but then you DI injectors are the next limitation. PI is less expensive than overspinning a HPFP and has MUCH more headroom.

 

[Dumaurier7]

It sounds like some mixed messages are going on? What tuner only recommends PI on pump gas? Are you sure he is not saying PI is NOT required on pump gas? Usually on pump you don't need PI unless you have a built motor and a big ass turbo. Even then you are leaving power on the table not running E85.

The reason you go PI is for E85 for 99% of people. E85 requires 30% more fluid than pump gas to make the same HP, the advantage is the very high AKI or octane as it basically acts like racegas but you can get it at the pump. The stock HPFP is a limitation especially when you need to push 30% more gas through it. You can get by that limitation by overspinning the HPFP(I think it's a bad idea) but then you DI injectors are the next limitation. PI is less expensive than overspinning a HPFP and has MUCH more headroom.

I am sure, he stated that it is not as simple as dumping more fuel throug PI, the more fuel flow through PI means more fuel will have to be cut out from DI to maintain the mass flow balance. I do have big turbo requireing more fuel so I intended to fix this through PI. I do not understand the principle that "The reason you go PI is for E85 for 99% of people. E85 requires 30% more fluid than pump gas to make the same HP" I am aware of the higher volume required when running any type of alcohol but like in my case where E85 is not readily available and pump gas is, then you feed the motor/turbo gas and maintain you a/f ratios, this is what we did BEFORE there ever was E anything, I just cant get my head around it. On pump gas you make less power because you can't run the higher ignition advance but you still make more power because the more air and fuel pushed through the motor the more power it makes regardless of the fuel type, am I somehow wrong here ?

 

[houtan]

I think you are still octane limited on how much power you can make on 93 pump though right?

The fuel mass is an e series issue as well, but that is fixed in the tune. Caused me problems 5 or so years ago because I would get a cel anytime port would spray. My guess is maybe your tuner doesn’t have the table defined?

 

[Dumaurier7]

What he said is that there is a set lower limit to the DI scalar of 0.85 that you'd have to reduce even more to allow for the increased PI in order to maintain the balance (??) which becomes very risky if for some reason PI is lost, the whole thing just sounds overly complicated to me !!

 

[fmorelli]

Lots of people reliably run PI. N55 and DME are just another variant.

 

[Torgus]

Lots of people reliably run PI. N55 and DME are just another variant.

Yes. The reality is if pi or di stopped working, no more engine. If an injector clogs fully, pi or di, no more engine. Hyper lean in any cylinder before the dme or controls can react, no more engine.

It is what it is.

If a high powered n54/n55 could run completely on DI it would be ideal. No real options yet. I hear for the newer n55s there may be an option in the future, dual hpfps and worked injectors etc, but it will not be cheap especially compared to PI.

It is hard to get past the value of a simple PI plate.

 

[Dumaurier7]

The upgraded Nostrum HPFP and Injectors were recommended at a total of $3200 !!

https://nostrum.mybigcommerce.com/by-vehicle/bmw-m235i/

 

[Dumaurier7]

Yes. The reality is if pi or di stopped working, no more engine. If an injector clogs fully, pi or di, no more engine. Hyper lean in any cylinder before the dme or controls can react, no more engine.

It is what it is.

If a high powered n54/n55 could run completely on DI it would be ideal. No real options yet. I hear for the newer n55s there may be an option in the future, dual hpfps and worked injectors etc, but it will not be cheap especially compared to PI.

It is hard to get past the value of a simple PI plate.

I am also in the process of putting together a custom two stage water/meth system to be used in conjunction with whatever fuel type I'm on to allow for more ignition advance, a cooler intake charge and protection during any lean run condition.

 

[Torgus]

The upgraded Nostrum HPFP and Injectors were recommended at a total of $3200 !!

https://nostrum.mybigcommerce.com/by-vehicle/bmw-m235i/

Exactly! $3200 or a $600 PI plate. Can get them used even cheaper. It is really hard to justify going DI only to the tune of 3.2k

Also when they say: WHP Potential on E85: 715 WHP I guarantee they mean on an E50 blend or less. So the DI injectors are still a limitation if you wanted to run full E85 like most people want. Probably more like 600whp on full E85. Which means what these injectors are only +20% flow over stock?

Meth is a great drug.

 

[Dumaurier7]

Exactly! I think I will continue on my planned path and see where it leads me before changing things up........thanks guys for your thoughts!

 

[Dumaurier7]

I am seriously considering getting the Precision Raceworks/ Nostrum Big Bore HPFP kit to run along with my PI set up!

 

[RuskiRacer]

Is the pi not providing enough fuel ? I'm really confused why you'd spend that much extra money. My buddy has a built n55 with a 64mm turbo runs full e85 and pi no issues

 

[Dumaurier7]

Because I'm beginning to think that what the tuner is saying does have some merit to it, if the HPFP upgrade provides enough fuel to be a complete fueling solution I will eventually remove the PI system all together.

 

[RuskiRacer]

Sounds like your tuner can't tune pi